Territitorial Commissions?

[Patrick ODwyer]

When a man was placed as a Lieutenant in the Yeomanry or Militia was that a Commission? If so if he later transferred to a regular unit was the date of his first commission from his joining the Yeomanry / Militia?

For an earlier period: Was the rank of Cornet / Ensign a commissioned rank ? If not what was it?

I get a bit confused here from time to time!

patrick

[mcderms]

The quick answer is 'yes' - many gentlemen chose the terriers rather than the New Army as a commission could be had for the cost of an interview with the CO. Also Militia commissions could be awarded by the Aldermen/Mayors of their 'home town'. Territorial and New Army commissions could also be temporary i.e. for the duration but at standard rates of pay. Any officer could be awarded a brevet i.e. 'honourary' rank often when assigned to another unit: Terrier adjutants were usually regular officers with a Lt or Capt rank but breveted up to Major.

All commissions date from the date of issue. Temporary commissions looked the same as regular ones but were stamped 'Temporary' in red on the back

There's a very good explanation of this in Holmes new book 'Tommy'.

[Muerrisch]

Any officer could be awarded a brevet i.e. 'honourary' rank often when assigned to another unit: Terrier adjutants were usually regular officers with a Lt or Capt rank but breveted up to Major.

I know a lot about commissions and brevets, and I know nothing of this. Evidence, please?

I have a nice hat here ready to eat: red-banded of course.

sgd.

Captain Grumpy.

[Guest DNH]

On the Cornet / Ensign question:

Enisgn was the lowest commissioned rank in an infantry regiment, now known as the 2nd Lieutenant. In my understanding a Cornet is the equivalent in a cavalry regiment.

Brevets are comlex: there is a detailed article on it in a past issue of the Society for Army Historical Research journal, but I couldn't tell you which one unfortunately! It was used as a consolation, a reward, an incentive etc all sorts of different reasons and could result in increased pay but not, I don't think, in improving an officer's seniority, which dated from his substantive rank.

Cheers

DNH

[Patrick ODwyer]

Thanks you all for confirming that these were commissioned ranks. I was fairly certain that was the case but it seems some Territorials reduced in rank to get into regular units and Cornets were as young as 16 so doubts crept into my mind.

Captain G. Is your concern that Adjutants in the Yeomanry were awaded Brevet of Major or that there was such a thing as Bevet Major? I hadn't heard of the former. Honourary and Brevet are not the same thing of course but I understand what Mcderms meant here.

I have 'Tommy' sitting on my shelf but just can't find the time to read it - a familiar story I'm sure!

Thanks again

[Muerrisch]

I have 'Tommy' sitting on my shelf but just can't find the time to read it - a familiar story I'm sure!

Thanks again

I am afraid that Richard Holmes is either less than clear on this topic, or his understanding is incomplete. When I get around to it, I will produce an artical for Stand To! that is definitive ie. properly sourced in regulations and with examples. Brevet, Honorary, Temporary, Local, Acting etc ranks are a minefield which has never been properly documented. As also posted, attached, detached, transferred etc.

One problem is that, at the time, everyone knew what was meant, so no one troubled to write proper definitions.

[Patrick ODwyer]

"One problem is that, at the time, everyone knew what was meant, so no one troubled to write proper definitions."

So right and so true of so many areas of military life. I very much look forward to reading your article.

Thanks to everyone again

[Hoplophile]

My favourite way of getting around the problem of "everyone knew what it meant so nobody bothered to write it down" is to look for the reports of foreign observers. In the era before WWI, these were often published as books, journal articles and pamphlets. They are also filed in various archives.

My favorite example of this concerns the use of the word "bread" by German and French soldiers. One can read everything written in German on the subject of military bread and never learn that German military bread was brown. Likewise, one can read everything in French on military bread and never learn that French military bread was white. Noentheless, the first thing that foreign officers visiting the French and German armies in 1914 and 1915 noticed was the colour of bread eaten by the men.

Of course, observers sometimes make humourous mistakes. The famous French general Hippolyte Langlois, for example, wrote a book on the British Army in 1910. In that book, which is a marvelous snapshot of both the Regular Army and the Territorial Force, he describes "teetotallers" (which seem to have been unknown in France at that time) as "men who have taken an oath to drink nothing but tea."

My very favourite work of this sort is "The Armies of Europe and Asia," by Emory Upton, an American general who took a tour of the world's armies in 1875 and 1876. Those interested in something a little closer to WWI may be interested in the reports published by the US Adjutant General in the early 1900s. An excerpt from one of these reports is attached.

92_10_BR_COL_ARMY_I.pdf

[Charles Fair]

The famous French general Hippolyte Langlois, for example, wrote a book on the British Army in 1910. In that book, which is a marvelous snapshot of both the Regular Army and the Territorial Force, he describes "teetotallers" (which seem to have been unknown in France at that time) as "men who have taken an oath to drink nothing but tea."

Hoplophile, please do you have a reference for this? I would be very interested in seeing it, particularly his comments on the TF.

Thanks for the download too.

LB - your proposed article would fill a most annoying gap, I regularly confuse myself on these terms. I am looking forward to it already