olosangus Posted 22 June , 2004 Share Posted 22 June , 2004 I have often thought it a bit unfair that many soldiers who obviously qualified for the bar to the 1914 star were never actually issued one - quite often because they became casualties and perhaps their next of kin didn't apply. I have seen groups were the recipient was even killed during the qualifying period but the mic shows no clasp issued. I recently found again my copy of the mic for HRH The Prince of Wales ( I came across it at the PRO years ago when looking for someone elses and took a copy out of interest). It is interesting to note that his arrival date in France is given as 16th November 1914 and that he was awarded "clasp and roses". My question is , did he actually make it " to withing range of the field guns" by Nov 22nd or is this a case of the great and the good getting a full entitlement, where lesser mortals didn't ? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 23 June , 2004 Share Posted 23 June , 2004 Just on the off chance you didnt know already, HRH PoW was also awarded the MC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDick Posted 23 June , 2004 Share Posted 23 June , 2004 Reminds me of Idi Amin; he awarded himself both the VC and the title 'Conqueror of the British Empire'. Anyone know current PoW's medals, as seen recently on D-Day celebrations. Saw a royal meritous service award of some kind (1st) and several coronation medals (next 3); thought I also saw a Canadian Forces Decoration and bar among them - would this be the case? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 23 June , 2004 Share Posted 23 June , 2004 Well the then Duke of York who became George VI certainly earned his WW1 decorations - he was on board a British submarine and there is a story about it lying on the bottom of the Solent and unable to get to the surface (?) It is worth noting that the reigning monarch was awarded the Defence Medal on the express order of Churchill although she did not qualify. She did however qualify for the 1939-45 War Medal. Of the current Royals, Andrew served in the South Atlantic, Charles did his stint in the Navy and as for Edward 2 minutes in the Marines. As they said at the time: Kiss a frog and you get a Prince Kissing a Prince won't give you a Marine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 23 June , 2004 Share Posted 23 June , 2004 Re George VI as the Duke of York during WW1, I would have to go back through my notes to corroborate but I believe he was serving on one of the battleships anchored in Scapa Flow the night HMS Vangaurd blew-up at anchor. It was feared a submarine may have entered the Flow and those ships at anchor were immediately ordered to take up stations to protect the anchorage against further submarine attacks. Also boats were lowered to look for survivors, bodies, etc and the DoY asked to helm one of the boats. He was, apparently, told in no uncertain terms that this was to dangerous for a Prince of the Realm and from what I understand that sums his war up. Whenever an opportunity to do his duty arose he was thwarted because of his position. I also remember reading he was ill at some point during the war and was given a long absence from duty. What I cant recall is whether he served at Jutland. I really do need a better filing system for this type of info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDick Posted 23 June , 2004 Share Posted 23 June , 2004 As PoW and holding a naval commission, the future King George V went out into The Solent aboard the early submarine HMS A1 in March 1904 for a diving demonstration. Fisher, then First Sea Lord, was rather concerned since many of these boats were prone to sinking and drowning their crews, but was intent on gaining royal patronage for these new vessels. All went well, but A1 was lost in the same waters some weeks later with all 11 hands. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 23 June , 2004 Share Posted 23 June , 2004 I can't answer with any certainty that the Prince of Wales was correctly entitled to the 1914 Star. I have read plenty of documentary evidence though that he took every opportunity to go into the Front Line(dishing out cigarettes and the like) and indeed it is well documented that he did not like his Staff Job and would have preferred action. I know from speaking to my parents that Edward was a very popular Post-War figure and even 30 years later they talked with sadness about his Abdication. My parents readily admitted,though, that the 1930's British Press printed none of the gossip that was in the foreign papers. George P.s. Edward was human.One of my Fathers's Police jobs was to guard the Royal Train overnight in a Fife railway siding.Reason, to allow the P.of W. to sober up before travelling on to Balmoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 23 June , 2004 Share Posted 23 June , 2004 Re George VI as the Duke of York during WW1, I would have to go back through my notes to corroborate but I believe he was serving on one of the battleships anchored in Scapa Flow the night HMS Vangaurd blew-up at anchor. It was feared a submarine may have entered the Flow and those ships at anchor were immediately ordered to take up stations to protect the anchorage against further submarine attacks. Also boats were lowered to look for survivors, bodies, etc and the DoY asked to helm one of the boats. He was, apparently, told in no uncertain terms that this was to dangerous for a Prince of the Realm and from what I understand that sums his war up. Whenever an opportunity to do his duty arose he was thwarted because of his position. I also remember reading he was ill at some point during the war and was given a long absence from duty. What I cant recall is whether he served at Jutland. I really do need a better filing system for this type of info Jon - Thanks - hence my question mark. I would be interested to know his exact service if you have it recorded somewhere. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 23 June , 2004 Share Posted 23 June , 2004 I have always understood that George VI, as Duke of York, served on a battleship or battle cruiser at Jutland, being the first monarch to have "Being under fire" on his CV for a long, long time. Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KILTY Posted 23 June , 2004 Share Posted 23 June , 2004 The Duke Of York served on H.M.S. Collingwood during the battle of Jutland. Kilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 23 June , 2004 Share Posted 23 June , 2004 ‘The Naval Who’s Who 1917’ has the following “Albert Frederick Arthur George, His Royal Highness Prince, was born on 14th December 1895……………………. Passing the examination, His Royal Highness was rated a midshipman on 15th September 1913 and appointed as from that day to the battleship ‘Collingwood,’ Captain J. C. Ley, flying the flag of Vice-Admiral the Hon Sir Stanley C. J. Colville. He joined the ‘Collingwood’ in the Firth of Forth on 29th September. He was promoted Sub-Lieutenant on 15th May, 1916 and Acting Lieutenant with seniority of 30th August, 1916. He was present at the Battle of Jutland, 31st May, 1916, and was commended for his service in that action…………………” Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 23 June , 2004 Share Posted 23 June , 2004 Re George VI as the Duke of York during WW1, I would have to go back through my notes to corroborate but I believe he was serving on one of the battleships anchored in Scapa Flow the night HMS Vangaurd blew-up at anchor. It was feared a submarine may have entered the Flow and those ships at anchor were immediately ordered to take up stations to protect the anchorage against further submarine attacks. Also boats were lowered to look for survivors, bodies, etc and the DoY asked to helm one of the boats. He was, apparently, told in no uncertain terms that this was to dangerous for a Prince of the Realm and from what I understand that sums his war up. Whenever an opportunity to do his duty arose he was thwarted because of his position. I also remember reading he was ill at some point during the war and was given a long absence from duty. What I cant recall is whether he served at Jutland. I really do need a better filing system for this type of info Jon - Thanks - hence my question mark. I would be interested to know his exact service if you have it recorded somewhere. Ian Ian, Regrettably I dont but hopefully Michael DR has helped answer this. By rights his service record should be on m/film at Kew?? Talking of which I am debating a fourth consecutive Saturday at Kew this weekend, so might see you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 24 June , 2004 Share Posted 24 June , 2004 Excellent information - many thanks. Jon - Will probably see you - I hope you now know how to use the microfilm reels now Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 24 June , 2004 Share Posted 24 June , 2004 Ian I will play it safe and stay in the Document Reading Room If you can get yr hands on any of the plastic holders for the medal albums you have a buyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviltaxman Posted 24 June , 2004 Share Posted 24 June , 2004 Don't know much about George V & VI as Prince of Wales, but looked at the current P.o.W site...... all I can say, is that it's a good job he never has to sign his full name & titles. I've copied some of the info for you to see his "entitlement". First names Charles Philip Arthur George Surname Mountbatten-Windsor [Von Saksen-Coburg-Gotha] Titles & Awards Prince of Wales (investiture 1 July 1969) Duke of Cornwall Duke of Rothesay Earl of Carrick Baron Renfrew Lord of the Isles Prince and Great Steward of Scotland Earl of Chester (26 July 1958) Knight of the (Order of the) Thistle (installed 1997) Knight of the Order of the Garter (installed 17 June 1968) Aide-de-Camp to the Queen (1973) Knight Grand Cross of the Order of Bath (28 May 1975) Privy Counsellor (1977) Knight of the Order of Australia (28 March 1981) Companion of the Queen's Service Order (1983) Honary Military Appointments (past -> present) Colonel-in-Chief: The Royal Regiment of Wales (24th/41st Foot) (11 June 1969) Colonel: Welsh Guards (1 March 1975) Colonel-in-Chief, The Cheshire Regiment (11 June 1977) Colonel-in-Chief: The Gordon Highlanders (11 June 1977) Colonel-in-Chief: The Parachute Regiment (11 June 1977) Colonel-in-Chief: 2nd King Edward VII's own Gurkha Rifles (The Sirmoor Rifles) (11 June 1977) Honorary Air Commodora, RAF Brawdy (terminated in 1992) (11 June 1977) Colonel-in Chief: Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) (11 June 1977) Colonel in Chief: The Royal Regiment of Canada (11 June 1977) Air Reserve Group of Air Command (11 June 1977) Colonel-in-Chief: Royal Winnipeg Rifles (11 June 1977) Colonel in Chief: Royal Australian Armoured Corps (11 June 1977) Air Commodore-in-Chief: Royal New Zealand Air Force (11 June 1977) Colonel-in Chief: The Royal Pacific Islands Regiment (8 August 1984) Colonel-in Chief: 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards (29 June 1985) Colonel-in Chief: The Royal Canadian Dragoons 19 September 1985) Colonel-in-Chief: Army Air Corps (1 March 1992) Colonel-in-Chief: The Royal Dragoon Guards (on formation) (1 June 1992) Honorary Air Commodora: RAF Valley (1 April 1993) Colonel-in-Chief: The Royal Gurkha Rifles (on formation) (1 June 1994) Deputy Colonel-in-Chief: The Highlanders (Seaforth, Gordons & Camerons) (on formation) (1 September 1994) Royal Honarary Colonel: The Queen's Own Yeomanry (2001) Military Status Colonel-in-Chief of the Royal Regiment of Wales Colonel of the Welsh Guards Rear-Admiral in the Royal Navy Major-General in the Army Air Vice-Marshal in the Royal Air Force As for "normal" medals, I've been checking up on a pic or 2 and notice that when he's in civvies or "basic" Naval uniform, he wears these........ Queens Service Order, 52 Coronation, 77 Jubilee, 2002 Jubilee, Canadian Force Decoration and another I can't quite make out. I'm assuming the pic that I used for reference was one of him during a "Canadian" tour. When in "full" uniform, he wears the extra "Stars" on the breast etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 24 June , 2004 Share Posted 24 June , 2004 Whilst I`m sure the PofW would have wanted to serve at the front, if he`d been allowed, the fact that he was awarded an MC while being kept from harm raises the question of how. It would be interesting to see who made out the recommendations and how they progressed and what the citation says. Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 25 June , 2004 Share Posted 25 June , 2004 From a Booklet the "Humorists at War" printed by George Findlay ex- Royal Fusilier in 1961. " A White Man" "The attack on Combles in September 1916 using tanks was a great success-----. The result of this acqusition of new territory was the "Brass Hats" also advanced from behind the lines and when we went out to rest we found all kinds of "war-shies" "strutting like peacocks" in the part of the Somme line which had been "No man's land" on July 1st. So many back benchers had come up a bit that we found the Expeditionary Force canteens had been cleaned out of all good things that go to making the of an officers's mess. But worst of all for most of our chaps there was not a fag to be had. We were told however they were expected up from the rail-head later in the day.What a crowd queued up when word got about that a supply had really arrived.Things looked a bit ugly at times for there were a few of the "back bench" officers trying to get into the marquee on the strength of their rank before opening time.We at the rear of the queue,voiced our disapproval of these tactics but just then occurred a diversion.A slim lithe officer pushing a very seedy looking bike came along and,throwing his machine carelessly against a guy-rope, took his place at the end of the queue. Then all along the line ran the news that the "bloke" who took his turn like any other Tommy was none other than the "Prince of Wales"-Edward the Eighth" as he was to be for a short time only. In the "Tommies" phrase, "A real White Man"". George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 25 June , 2004 Share Posted 25 June , 2004 Whilst I`m sure the PofW would have wanted to serve at the front, if he`d been allowed, the fact that he was awarded an MC while being kept from harm raises the question of how. It would be interesting to see who made out the recommendations and how they progressed and what the citation says. Phil B Phil, This point has been touched on before and if memory serves me right the explanation runs something like the foll: The award of the MC to the PoW was made in the King’s Birthday Honours at a time [1916?] when the MC was not only a gallantry medal but was also awarded for distinguished service not necessarily in the face of the enemy. The award system changed in 1917 [?] when the OBE was instituted and after that the MC was then awarded solely for gallantry Sorry I can't find the original thread/ref Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Pigott Posted 2 August , 2004 Share Posted 2 August , 2004 ... I recently found again my copy of the mic for HRH The Prince of Wales ( I came across it at the PRO years ago when looking for someone elses and took a copy out of interest). It is interesting to note that his arrival date in France is given as 16th November 1914 and that he was awarded "clasp and roses". My question is , did he actually make it " to withing range of the field guns" by Nov 22nd or is this a case of the great and the good getting a full entitlement, where lesser mortals didn't ? Simon I came across a reference in S.-D.'s Memoirs that probably answers the original question. "On the 20th November, H.R.H. the Prince of Wales honoured us with a visit, and went with McCalmont [Captain, on S.-D.'s Staff - AP] to as safe a place as we could find to watch the fighting, but the Prince didn't care about safe places. Two days later H.R.H. was attached to my Staff for four days, learning General Staff as well as Administrative work, with the greatest interest and zeal." I suppose one has to interpret that as H.R.H. being within the range of German mobile artillery within the relevant period. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard_Lewis Posted 2 August , 2004 Share Posted 2 August , 2004 Don't know what he did but he visited elements of the Welsh Division at the front. Also sent them a congratulory telegram after - from memory - their successes at the start of the Passchendaele offensive. Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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