Bumped off!

[Guest redrum]

Are there any actual admittances /proof of British soldiers really killing the "hated" superior when battle commenced with a bullet in the back? Was this just Tommy sounding off? If it did happen were any soldiers found out and tried by courts martial?

[pippas]

There must have been dozens, if not hundreds of these kinds of incidents - but how many are documented?

The closest comparison I can draw from my (very) limited knowledge of the subject, was a conversation I had many years ago with a Captain Matthews, of the 47th London Division - like so many of the Great War veterans, he was naturally reluctant to recount details of his wartime experiences, but he knew I had an interest in the subject, and would, under some duress, tell me personal stories of his time in the trenches.

On one occasion, I asked him 'how was it possible to persuade everyone to 'go over the top', when ordered?' -- he paused, and said, 'armed MP's, in our trenches!'

'Surely they wouldn't actually shoot anyone who refused', I asked in my ignorant youthful way--- He did not answer!

Only this week, on Channel 4's documentary about the Boy Soldiers, one of the old chaps made a similar comment, and again, he did not elaborate --

I fear that the details of a thousand stories of this type, and of the 'back shooting' incidents so often spoken of in anecdote, have gone to the grave unrecorded -- and perhaps, so they should.

[BMoorhouse]

Officers from the 7th Somersets (and therefore probably the whole BEF) were certainly trained to threaten, and if necessary to shoot, retiring soldiers to prevent a route. He himself gives an account where he had to threaten retiring soldiers in this manner.

(Diary of Col McMurtrie)

I have not encountered any accounts of people killing superiors in combat, although no doubt it must have occurred. One of the 7th Somerset RSM's was murdered by a 'man that ran amok' while the battalion was stationed in reserve at Red House, on the Laventie front.

Brendon.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

This topic has been discussed before - however I seem to recall the circumstances surrounding the death of Sir Harry Lauder's son were a bit questionable to say the least.

I also had the privelidge of pushing an old veteran around in a wheelcar at the Bisley Ranges as a youth one day, and after being introduced to the then Head of the Army Rifle Association, who was very patronising to say the least, he made a comment along the lines of he remebered what happened to pompous officers like that particularly when on a trench raid or a night visit into no-mans land. Perhaps an old soldier's story who knows.

[KateJ]

Are there any actual admittances /proof of British soldiers really killing the "hated" superior when battle commenced with a bullet in the back? Was this just Tommy sounding off? If it did happen were any soldiers found out and tried by courts martial?

Not sure if this can be counted as "proof" but the poet Robert Graves certainly wrote about it in his poem "Sergeant-Major Money" (1917).

It wasn’t our battalion, but we lay alongside it,

So the story is as true as the telling is frank.

They hadn’t one Line-office left, after Arras,

Except a batty major and the Colonel, who drank.

“B” Company Commander was fresh from the Depot

An expert on gas drill, otherwise a dud;

So Sergeant-Major Money carried on, as instructed,

And that’s where the swaddies began to sweat blood.

His Old Army humour was so well-spiced and hearty

That one poor sod shot himself, and one lost his wits;

But discipline’s maintained, and back in rest-billets

The Colonel congratulates “B” company on their kits.

The subalterns went easy, as was only natural

With a terror like Money driving the machine

Till finally two Welshmen, butties from the Rhondda

Bayoneted their bugbear in a field-canteen.

Well, we couldn’t blame the officers, they relied on Money;

We couldn’t blame the pitboys, their courage was grand

Or, least of all, blame Money, an old stiff surviving

In a New (bloody) Army he couldn’t understand.

[Derek Robertson]

Following on from Ian's mention of John Lauder, here's an extract from William Murray, Argylls veteran from the book:

“VOICES FROM WAR: Personal recollections of war in our century by Scottish men and women”.

Ian MacDougall, The Mercat Press, ISBN 1873644 450

“Lieutenant Lauder, Harry Lauder’s son, he was in the Argylls, too.

Oh he wis a ******. He wis very unpopular. Ah mean, he used tae wear a raincoat and ye didnae know if he was an officer or no. Ah think he did that deliberately. And ye maybe passed him and didnae salute and he would grab you. Ye would get a fortnight’s detention for no’ salutin’ an officer. Oh, he was very unpopular. He was shot in the back a’ right.

He had no confidence in his men at all. Ah mean, he jist treated them as outcasts. Ah don’t know whether he was class conscious or not. Ah didnae see why he should have been, because his faither wis only a comedian.

We were going over the top and he was shot in the back. It wis somebody in his own unit. I never had any dealings wi’ him but the men all knew he had been shot in the back, oh aye, they all knew. Well, if anybody is shot in the back it was deliberate.”

[paul guthrie]

Were charges ever filed for this?

[Ali Hollington]

In either Goodbye to all that or Undertones of war, (I think GBTAT), an anecdote is given of two soldiers who hand themselves in for killing a SNCO from their battalion, their defence was that they thought he was someone else. Not exactly proof of this kind of thing happeningbut I agree it probably did somewhere.

Ali

[BeppoSapone]

Are there any actual admittances /proof of British soldiers really killing the "hated" superior when battle commenced with a bullet in the back? Was this just Tommy sounding off? If it did happen were any soldiers found out and tried by courts martial?

There is a well known folk song/army song about a soldier shooting an unpopular officer. Heard it on the radio once and in the pre-amble the singer said that this song was "banned throughout the British Army".

Was this the case, and did this incident actually happen?

I have seen other words, and names other than McCassery.

Anyone know any more. Any Black Watch experts here?

McCassery

Kind friends take warning by my sad tale

As I lay here in Strangeways Gaol

My thoughts, my feelings, no tongue can tell

As I am listening to the prison bell.

When I was seventeen year of age

Into the army I did engage.

I did enlist with a good intent

To join the Forty Second Regiment.

To Fullwood Barracks I did go

To serve some time at that depot.

From trouble there I never was free

Because my captain took a dislike to me.

When I was stationed on guard one day

Some children came near me to play,

My officer from his quarters came

And ordered me to take their parents' name.

My officer's orders I did fulfill

I took their name against my will.

I took one name instead of three

"Neglect of Duty" was the charge against me.

In the orderly-room next morning I did appear

My C.O. refused my plea to hear,

Anf quickly he had signed my crime

And to Fullwood Barracks I was then confined.

With a loaded rifle I did prepare

To shoot my captain on the barrack square;

It was Captain Neill that I meant to kill,

But I shot my colonel against my will.

I done the deed, I shed his blood,

And at Liverpool Assizes my trial stood;

The judge he says, "McCassery

Prepare yourself for the gallows-tree."

I have no father to take my part

I have no mother to break her heart,

I have one friend, and a girl is she

Would lay down her life for McCassery.

In Liverpool City this young man was tried

In Strangeways, Manchester, his body lies.

And all you young soldiers who pass his grave,

Pray: Lord have mercy on McCassery.

[BeppoSapone]

Are there any actual admittances /proof of British soldiers really killing the "hated" superior when battle commenced with a bullet in the back?  Was this just Tommy sounding off? If it did happen were any soldiers found out and tried by courts martial?

There is a well known folk song/army song about a soldier shooting an unpopular officer. Heard it on the radio once and in the pre-amble the singer said that this song was "banned throughout the British Army".

Was this the case, and did this incident actually happen?

I have seen other words, and names other than McCassery.

Anyone know any more. Any Black Watch experts here?

I just did a little "googling" and found what is supposed to be the origin of this song, here called McCafferty/McCaffery

"Calvery sung by May Bradley, Ludlow, Shropshire, 1965. Roud 1148.

Known to most singers as McCafferty or McCaffery. The facts are as follows. On Saturday, 14, September, 1861, at Fulwood Barracks, just outside Preston in Lancashire, Private Patrick McCaffery shot and killed the Depot Commandant, Colonel Hugh Denis Crofton, and the Depot Adjuant, Captain John Hanhan. McCaffery was 18 years old and from Kildare. A member of the 32nd (Cornwall) Regiment of Foot (Light Infantry), he had failed to take down the names of some children who were playing outside the Officer’s Mess the previous day. Windows had been broken there and McCaffery only took down one name. Hanhan, who appears to have had some form of grudge against McCaffery, charged McCaffery with neglect of duty and ordered that he spend the night in the cells. On his release the following morning, McCaffery took a shot at Hanhan, but the bullet also passed through Colonel Crofton and both men were killed. McCafferys trial took place on 15, December, and he was hanged outside Liverpool’s Kirkwood Gaol on 11, January, 1862. Contrary to popular belief, the song was never ‘banned’ in the British Army.

Other recordings. Packie Manus Byrne (Donegal) - Veteran VT132CD. Jimmy MacBeath (Aberdeenshire) - Rounder CD 1834 (MacBeath also talks about the song and how the Army was against it). "

Source: http://www.mustrad.org.uk/vop/notes78.htm

[AndyHollinger]

Hey ... if you were a 2ndLT in Viet Nam, you knew about Fragging ... and it happened ALOT in Italy in WWII ... There is an unspoken working code among soldiers and officers ... and breaking the code is breaking the code ...

Many of us idolize the BA ... I know I do ... we look at it whether they be redcoats struggling ashore against the Froggies on some carribean island or Kacki clad soldiers making their way forward at the Somme as a group of superhuman warriors led by gallant and couragous (if not a bit incompetent) officers whose lineage goes back before William ... our image is of Pipers wading ashore at Normandy ... and of Kilts standing fast in front of Ney ... they are the men who kept coming up Breeds Hill and almost got to the Cotton Bales at New Orleans and stood fast at Tobruk ....

But, let's not forget they are soldiers and as such grouse and complain ... and are armed ... they "take care of" officers they don't like and never learn the names of replacements - just like all the armies since the Assyrians.

While I, for one, think of the BA - even today - as the definition of what would be found if one looked it up in The OED under the word "Army" ... believe it is and was the finest ... they fragged their officers and shot people to settle scores ....

Stuff happens ...

[P.B.]

I seem to remember in one of Crozier's books (possibly "A Brass Hat in No-man's Land" or, to give the less-flattering title in an inscription handwritten in a copy now owned by Richard Holmes, "A Fat **** in No-man's Land"....) a story of a "fragging"incident in which an unpopular NCO was killed whilst at the latrine.

Two soldiers drew lots for who should do the deed, and the loser approached the NCO from behind and placed a Mills Bomb in his trousers whilst they were down around his ankles!

Hmmm....not sure what to make of this one, given the somewhat "mixed" reputation for veracity Crozier enjoys among some of his critics. It could have happened, equally it could be a WWI example of an urban myth....I once heard a similar tale from the Falklands War in which an unpopular NCO spent the night of one engagement carefully avoiding a group of disgruntled Toms who had vowed -in no uncertain terms- to do him some damage. Bizarrely, I also heard -from the same engagement- about an NCO who threatened/attempted (depending on the version being told) to shoot another NCO -apparantly suffering from combat-stress- who had absented himself during the fighting......if anything the fine line between myth and reality, and the concept of the "trench myth", is not the sole preserve of more distant conflicts.

(As an aside, Niall Ferguson's "The Pity of War" mentions that the fire-eating Graham Seton Hutchinson "reputedly" shot a group of his own men for attempting to surrender before resuming his war against the Germans....again, who knows?)

Hope this has been of some interest, all the best

Paul.

[BeppoSapone]

(As an aside, Niall Ferguson's "The Pity of War" mentions that the fire-eating Graham Seton Hutchinson "reputedly" shot a group of his own men for attempting to surrender before resuming his war against the Germans....again, who knows?)

I don't know if it is true, but the source is a prog, done on BBC Radio Scotland about 10 years ago, called "Hi Jock ARe You Glad You Listed?"

There is mention of an incident in which the father of one of the presenters was involved. At one point an English Regiment, poorly trained/led were said to be "retiring" away from the fighting and the Scots were given orders to machine gun them.

I must find the tape and listen again!

[Andrew P]

I recall reading in one of the 1st Brigade Australian unit histories that after training in Australia & Egypt there was an officer who drew the ire of several men of the battalion and it was said that when they went into battle it wouldn't suprise to see him get a bullet from behind. But once in action this particular officer who made himself so hated on the parade ground drew the admiration of the men with his coolness under fire and leadership.

[Guest dinkidi]

Yep!

Them Tommies at Tobruk were something else, Andy.

ooRoo

Pat

[marina]

McCafferty's Song - that brought back memories. My Dad used to sing me that when I was little. He always called it 'McCafferty's Farewell'. Good to hear the story behind it.

Marina

[Paul Hodges]

This is from Emden & Humphries Veterans, the memories of George Littlefair, 1/8th Durham Light Infantry in 1997:

'All our officers were local to home, good 'uns who were men, mucked in with us. But we had one, a bloody college boy, he didn't, not him, he was an officer boy, a bloody doll dressed up, that's all he was. We were muck where he was concerned and he knew we didn't like him. "I've been to college, you've been scraping a living," thought he was much better than anybody else, but when it comes to bullets the ******* are all alike. He was always picking at one little Irish lad we had, every chance he got. He was real Irish, I mean we had difficulty understanding him, but we got on with him all right, he was damn good, he'd do owt for anybody, help any lad out. Paddy called all us lads "Durham". He says to me, "I'll tell you, Durham, when we go over the top," he says, "that ******'ll not come back". Well, we went over the top and this officer got a bullet in him. Might have been from the German side, might have been our.' p67