John Horace Henry White

[vic353tory]

Hi, I am new to this forum so I hope you will forgive me if I go over old ground. I am trying to find out some more information on the service record of my Mothers uncle-John Horace Henry White. For many years all we knew of him was his full name (from the 'Death Penny'- which we have ) and that he has no known grave. I have found out that he was killed on 31/7/1917 serving with the Kings Royal Rifle Corps, s/no R/32337 and he is remembered on the Menin Gate.

I would be grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction to find out his battalion and their movements up to and on that day. I assume they were in involved in the opening day of the 3rd battle of Ypres.

Many Thanks

Rich

[IPT]

Name:John Horace Henry White

Birth Place:Parsons Green, Middx.

Death Date:31 Jul 1917

Death Location:France & Flanders

Enlistment Location:Hammersmith, Middx.

Rank:Rifleman

Regiment:King's Royal Rifle Corps

Battalion:21st Battalion

Number:R/32337

Type of Casualty:Died of wounds

Theatre of War:Western European Theatre

21st (Service) Battalion (Yeoman Rifles)

Formed in September 1915 from volunteers from the farming communities of Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham by the Northern Command. Moved to Duncombe Park at Helmsley.

January 1916 : October 1915 : moved to Aldershot and attached to 124th Brigade in 41st Division.

4 May 1916 : landed in France.

November 1917 : moved with the Division to Italy but returned to France in March 1918.30 March 1916 : landed at Le Havre.

Here is the order of battle for the 41st Division. The Battle of Pilckem Ridge (3rd Ypres) commenced on 31st July 1917;

http://www.1914-1918.net/41div.htm

"Perhaps better known simply as ‘Passchendaele’, ‘Third Wipers’ had opened on Tuesday the 31ST of July 1917 with the so called Battle of Pilckem Ridge, however, during these operations the Yeoman Rifles had played little part"

http://www.scarboroughsmaritimeheritage.org.uk/greatwar/f26-flers.php

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello Rich

Just to add to what IPT has said, it is almost certain that your great-uncle was not in the Yeoman Rifles from their inception in autumn 1915, as his service number, place of enlistment and place of origin suggest that he was one of the Londoners drafted in to make good the battalion's heavy losses on the Somme, probably in October 1916.

The 1917 War Record for the 21/KRRC states:

On the night of July 30th - 31st, we took up our position in support to the 123rd Infantry Brigade for an attack on the enemy system of trenches. Whilst proceeding to the assembly point, we had a few casualties from gas shells.

At dawn on July 31st, the artillery barrage opened, and the 123rd Brigade attacked. There was a heavy rainstorm, which made progress extremely difficult. Stiff fighting took place throughout the day, and we moved forward early in the evening.

About 7pm the enemy counter-attacked on the right flank of the 123rd Brigade, and two of our Companies moved forward to meet it. They caused the enemy to retire with heavy losses. During this fight Lieut.WB Harmon was killed while leading his Company.

At dusk these two Companies returned to their original positions.

GV Dennis has a section on this in A Kitchener Man's Bit but he was not in the companies that went forward, as your great-uncle probably was.

EDIT Or he might have been fatally wounded by the gas shells earlier. There is no mention of casualties earlier in July, when the battalion was in training at Meteren and Westoutre. There were heavy casualties in mid-June, but if he had been wounded then and not died until the end of July, it would probably have been at home, and in any case he would have had a grave. So the 30th-31st July seems certain to have been the time.

I think the 1917 War Diary is online (National Archives) but haven't got it myself as I am concentrating on 1915-16. There was another query about a Londoner in the 21/KRRC in the Soldiers' subforum a little while ago, here KRRC.

Liz

Edited 2 March , 2011 by Liz in Eastbourne

[vic353tory]

Name:John Horace Henry White

Birth Place:Parsons Green, Middx.

Death Date:31 Jul 1917

Death Location:France & Flanders

Enlistment Location:Hammersmith, Middx.

Rank:Rifleman

Regiment:King's Royal Rifle Corps

Battalion:21st Battalion

Number:R/32337

Type of Casualty:Died of wounds

Theatre of War:Western European Theatre

21st (Service) Battalion (Yeoman Rifles)

Formed in September 1915 from volunteers from the farming communities of Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham by the Northern Command. Moved to Duncombe Park at Helmsley.

January 1916 : October 1915 : moved to Aldershot and attached to 124th Brigade in 41st Division.

4 May 1916 : landed in France.

November 1917 : moved with the Division to Italy but returned to France in March 1918.30 March 1916 : landed at Le Havre.

Here is the order of battle for the 41st Division. The Battle of Pilckem Ridge (3rd Ypres) commenced on 31st July 1917;

http://www.1914-1918.net/41div.htm

"Perhaps better known simply as ‘Passchendaele’, ‘Third Wipers’ had opened on Tuesday the 31ST of July 1917 with the so called Battle of Pilckem Ridge, however, during these operations the Yeoman Rifles had played little part"

http://www.scarborou...r/f26-flers.php

Thanks IPT.

Thats very helpful. The only thing I find a little confusing is the 'died of wounds' bit. To me that suggests that his location is known when he died. Unless he was left behind when the two companies that Liz mentions below went forward and retreated and subsequently never found again? He is definitely down as missing and his sister ( my Grandmother) often told my Mother that the Unknown Warrior in the Abbey could have been her brother!

Regards,

Rich

Hello Rich

Just to add to what IPT has said, it is almost certain that your great-uncle was not in the Yeoman Rifles from their inception in autumn 1915, as his service number, place of enlistment and place of origin suggest that he was one of the Londoners drafted in to make good the battalion's heavy losses on the Somme, probably in October 1916.

The 1917 War Record for the 21/KRRC states:

On the night of July 30th - 31st, we took up our position in support to the 123rd Infantry Brigade for an attack on the enemy system of trenches. Whilst proceeding to the assembly point, we had a few casualties from gas shells.

At dawn on July 31st, the artillery barrage opened, and the 123rd Brigade attacked. There was a heavy rainstorm, which made progress extremely difficult. Stiff fighting took place throughout the day, and we moved forward early in the evening.

About 7pm the enemy counter-attacked on the right flank of the 123rd Brigade, and two of our Companies moved forward to meet it. They caused the enemy to retire with heavy losses. During this fight Lieut.WB Harmon was killed while leading his Company.

At dusk these two Companies returned to their original positions.

GV Dennis has a section on this in A Kitchener Man's Bit but he was not in the companies that went forward, as your great-uncle probably was.

EDIT Or he might have been fatally wounded by the gas shells earlier. There is no mention of casualties earlier in July, when the battalion was in training at Meteren and Westoutre. There were heavy casualties in mid-June, but if he had been wounded then and not died until the end of July, it would probably have been at home, and in any case he would have had a grave. So the 30th-31st July seems certain to have been the time.

I think the 1917 War Diary is online (National Archives) but haven't got it myself as I am concentrating on 1915-16. There was another query about a Londoner in the 21/KRRC in the Soldiers' subforum a little while ago, here KRRC.

Liz

Hi Liz,

Thanks for that info. As I wrote to IPT above, the bit about 'died of wounds' is confusing as it suggests that someone knew where he was when he died. Is it likely that he would have been left behind when the two companies (if he was with them) retreated?

Regards,

Rich

[KevinBattle]

A battlefield is not a neat and tidy place and making or keeping records has a lower priority than just staying alive!

As it is recorded he died of wounds, he was probably treated at a Casualty Clearing Station and properly buried. However, as fighting continued raging on that sector, an artillery barrage could destroy the cemetery, grave markers etc, so that when the ground was regained, all trace had been lost.

The unstated point of the "Unknown Warrior" was so that every family denied a known grave could cherish the hope that their loved one was him, to give the next best thing to the dignity of a known grave.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello again Rich

Kevin has summed it up, I think. I'd been going to suggest that if you wanted to pursue this aspect you should ask about it in another sub-forum, as there are people who know a lot about CWGC, records etc who won't spot your query here. But I doubt if much more can be added.

Although I cannot answer your question, I have done a bit of work for you on the casualties of those two days, 30 and 31 July, which should at least give you an idea of the circumstances. I have found three men who died on 30th and nine on 31st, including your great-uncle.

I've also included the one officer killed, 2/Lt Harmon, who is listed on CWGC, SDGW and his medal index card as having been killed in action on 1st August, even though the War Record clearly states that the action was on 31st and that he was killed leading his company in it. Who's right? Did he in fact die of wounds a few hours later? There are many questions to which we'll never know the answers.

You will see from the list below that almost all these men, including 2/Lt Harmon, and including two other men who are said to have died of wounds, have no known grave and are commemorated on the Menin Gate. The two who are in the Hooge Crater Cemetery are one who was killed on 30th, probably by a gas shell, and another man said to have died of wounds on 31st. So there's no pattern.

Were these men buried somewhere that was later obliterated by further fighting? This seems the most likely explanation. We do know the ground was too wet to dig trenches in the front line and it was extremely boggy everywhere. GV Dennis describes how the men of the battalion who were not in the two companies that went forward carried the wounded back to the support line.

Dennis also says this, on p 173 of A Kitchener Man's Bit (ed. M Hickes, MERH books 1994) - note his description of it as 'the mudbath';

'We learned that twelve Military Medals had been awarded to the battalion for the 31st stunt – the mudbath. They went to four sergeants, three lance-corporals and five riflemen. One officer was awarded a Military Cross.'

It's clear that the comment on the Scarborough website quoted by IPT that the 21st battalion had little part in this battle is not quite right: they were in support of the 123rd Brigade rather than leading the attack, but the fighting was intense and it seems to me your great-uncle died in this.

By the way - when you reply to this don't press the 'reply' immediately below, which will give you a repeat of this very long message unless you edit it down to something you really want to quote. Press 'Add reply' instead, or 'Fast reply' if you're not adding anything complicated to your text. Here's the list:

MEN OF 21/KRRC KILLED IN ACTION OR DIED OF WOUNDS 30th & 31st JULY 1917

Three are 'original' Yeoman Riflemen with service no. C/12***, the rest are later drafts.

July 30th

1. Rfn Walter Oakey C/7665 Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

(CWGC does not distinguish KIA and DOW - no records found on Ancestry)

2. Rfn George Charles Reid R/32236 enlisted Stepney Age 20

Son of Arthur & Kate Reid of 38 Diggon St Stepney

KIA Hooge Crater Cemetery

3. Rfn (L/Corporal) John Norman Gover C/12304 enlisted Castleford, Yorks Age 24

Son of Mrs Kate Gover, of Glenholme, Townville, Castleford, Yorks

KIA Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

July 31st

Officer

Temp. 2/Lieut Wilfred Baldwin Harmon Age 20

Son of Rev Frank Harmon and Matilda Harmon of Margate, Kent (and China - missionaries)

KIA Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

NB All records give death date 1st August but KRRC War Record states 31st July

Other ranks

1. Rfn Joseph Edwin Ballard A/200970 enlisted Marylebone

KIA Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

2. Rfn (L/Corporal) Joe Beckett R/16646 enlisted Royton, Lancs Age 33

Son of the late John and Charlotte Beckett

KIA Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

3. Rfn Tom Lester Firth C/12937 enlisted Leeds Age 21

Son of Gibson and Harriet Firth, of 4, Parkfield Grove, Beeston, Leeds

Died of wounds Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

4. CSM William Albury Gilling C/12468 enlisted Thirsk, Yorks Age 35

Son of Henry Gilling of Brier Villa Sowerby Thirsk

KIA Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

5. Sgt Henry Kirkby 5516 enlisted Sheffield

KIA Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

6. Rfn Charles Pettit A/200933 enlisted Kettering, Northants

KIA Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

7. Rfn Henry Smith R/25276 enlisted Poplar, Middx

Died of wounds Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

8. Rfn Fred Wallwork R/33495 enlisted Rochdale, Lancs Age 23

Son of James and Sarah Wallwork, of 98, Watkin St., Rochdale, Lancs

Died of wounds Hooge Crater Cemetery

9. Rfn John Horace Henry White R/32337 enlisted Hammersmith Age 21

Son of Mrs E.M Collins, of 46, Dewhurst Rd, West Kensington, London

Died of wounds Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

(Ancestry, CWGC and Geoff's Search Engine)

EDITED because I had got my sums wrong.

Edited 3 March , 2011 by Liz in Eastbourne

[Liz in Eastbourne]

<snip>

it is almost certain that your great-uncle was not in the Yeoman Rifles from their inception in autumn 1915, as his service number, place of enlistment and place of origin suggest that he was one of the Londoners drafted in to make good the battalion's heavy losses on the Somme, probably in October 1916.

In case Rich is still around, or anyone else is interested, I think I ought to modify this statement. The first part is correct - he won't have been an 'original' - but the date at which he might have joined them remains open unless you've found his service record (which I haven't so it's probably one of the destroyed majority, though with Ancestry mistranscriptions I may have missed it).

I have just been looking at the early August casualties - won't bore you with another list, but two are interesting from this point of view.

Lance-Corporal Frederick Donald Stevens, R/12740, said to have died of wounds on 1 August (see fuller account on Soldiers subforum), joined the 21/KRRC in France in June 1916, was wounded at Flers and returned to them in February 1917. So he was with the 21/KRRC for all his active service after June 1916.

On the other hand Rfn Charles Churcher, C/4650, killed in action on 5th August 1917, had been with various KRRC battalions and joined the 21st less than three weeks before his death. The battalion had suffered heavy casualties in June. (Both men are commemorated on the Menin Gate.)

So although it's true that a large number of Londoners joined the Yeoman Rifles around October 1916, some were drafted in at other times.

Liz

[vic353tory]

Hi Liz and Kevin,

Still around, just been away for a couple of days. I take onboard what Kevin has added and I'm sure thats probably what has happened. Thanks to all especially Liz for their help on this, it's much appreciated. The level of knowledge and speed of replies on this forum has been eye opening for a newbie like myself. It's possible my Grandmother did know that her brother had died of wounds but she is 40 years gone and he has passed down to us as just 'missing'. It would have been (and is) , some comfort to know that someone was with him as he died and his resting place was probably known at least for a while rather than he just disappeared like so many other poor souls.

Thanks for the tip about replies Liz, I should have said that not only was I new to this forum, but new to all forums. My two daughters are trying to educate me (with much raising of eyebrows!) in the correct etiquette.

I feel a bit of a fraud benefitting from others very obvious hard work, so I'm wondering if I have the nerve to start a new thread about my paternal grandfathers battalion (Hampshires)and their actionon the first day of the Somme.

THanks again for all your help,

Regards,

Rich

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hi Rich

If you ask about your grandfather and/or the Hampshires you'll get different people so don't worry. As long as you've had a look at the Long Long TraiI (link at top of page) and done a forum search before you ask, no one will mind at all. I am not a frequenter of forums myself apart from this one and various forum members patiently educated me (and still do from time to time) in its ways - with hardly a raised eyebrow.

The only other thing I wonder if you could do - and I've never done it myself but I believe it's easy, and only the originator of the thread can do it - is change the subtitle so that others interested in the KRRC and especially the 21st Bn will notice it now or in future, e.g. '21/KRRC 31st July 1917'. I nearly missed this because it looks like a 'soldiers' query in here by mistake. Of course there's always an overlap but as the question and answers concentrate on the 21/KRRC, it would be a good idea to show that.

Now I have to go away and check another forum member's advice on this so I can pass it on!

One other thing I noticed was that your great-uncle was working for a railway company, the LNWR, as an apprentice clerk aged 15 in1911. Although he was very junior it's likely that he stayed with them until the war, isn't it? It would be worth putting a query on here Railwaymen died 1914-1918 to see if he was commemorated by the company.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

OK, Rich - changing a subtitle or title, courtesy of forum pal David Faulder:

'You do this by going to your original message, clicking the "edit" button on the right just below the message. Then when in the edit window, click on the "Use Full Editor" button just below the edit space. Then if you scroll to the top you can access the title field and change it! (Easier than it sounds.)'

I haven't done it myself because even when I wished I'd posted a different title or subtitle, changing it would have made it look as if people answering my questions were not answering the one I'd asked! But adding the unit details and date here would not cause any such problems.

Liz

[vic353tory]

Thanks Liz,

I will definitely follow the railway link. No sign of an edit button though.

Regards,

Rich

Ah.. my 5th post has brought up the edit button.....and a promotion!

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Ah.. my 5th post has brought up the edit button.....and a promotion!

And it means you can send and receive private messages, so I've just sent you one!

Liz

[CGM]

Hi Liz and Kevin,

.............. I feel a bit of a fraud benefitting from others very obvious hard work, so I'm wondering if I have the nerve to start a new thread about my paternal grandfathers battalion (Hampshires)and their actionon the first day of the Somme.

THanks again for all your help,

Regards,

Rich

Hello Rich,

Welcome to the forum.

Please don't worry about asking for more help. Many of us started out knowing nothing and receiving a great deal of help from the forum members.

All the answers to your questions become part of the huge storehouse of information here, and could well help others in the future.

CGM

[vic353tory]

Hi CGM,

Thanks for that, I've been made to feel welcome.

Regards,

Rich