Smith-Dorriens Temper.

[armourersergeant]

Today whilst standing in my local library, more commonly known to the rest of Leicester shoppers as Borders bookshop, I was skimming through Richard Holmes bio of Sir John French for info on some men i am researching. (It is a habit of mine to pick up any book on WW1 and check the index for Forestier-Walker)

Not to surprised was i to find a reference, given FW's involvement with II corps and Smith-Dorrien during 1914. But i was surprised to find the reference seeming to back up Sir Johns dislike of Smith-Dorrien. Apparently in Archibald Murrays papers held at the IWM it states that during the retreat from Mons in 1914 Forestier-Walker tired of SD's temper asked to be relieved from his post. Murray apparently told him not to be so stupid and get on with the job.

This is the first real eveidence of SD's temper that i have found where it may seem to be more than a grummpy old man thing which i had set in my mind. Of course it could be that Forestier-Walker could have been berated for something that was justified. I have recently heard that Haig in his diary did not have a good word to say about II corps staff work.

has anyone come across any of this previously?

comments

Arm.

[Anthony Pigott]

Gen. Smith-Dorrien's alleged bad temper seems to be regularly referred as though it was common knowledge - it's even in his Times obituary, but I've seen little in the way of documented examples.

Smithers quotes Sir John Fortescue describing an incident in 1911 in Delhi when a squadron of dragoons blocked the path of the motor that S.-D. was travelling in:

"Surely, I thought, he is not going to make a scene. ... 'Who commands that squadron?' rose at the third repetition to a formidable fortissimo. ... after a few seconds of rapidly cooling wrath Horace dismissed him with a bland 'All right'. ... it was not in his nature to be ungenerous, rancorous, froward or vindictive: and he had a keen sense of the ridiculous."

He certainly seems to have been the epitome of the expression "doesn't suffer fools gladly" (whether subordinates or superiors) but by all accounts didn't bear grudges (unlike some people I could think of). I can respect someone like that.

Regards

Anthony

[Cymro]

Today whilst standing in my local library, more commonly known to the rest of Leicester shoppers as Borders bookshop, I was skimming through Richard Holmes bio of Sir John French for info on some men i am researching. (It is a habit of mine to pick up any book on WW1 and check the index for Forestier-Walker)

Not to surprised was i to find a reference, given FW's involvement with II corps and Smith-Dorrien during 1914. But i was surprised to find the reference seeming to back up Sir Johns dislike of Smith-Dorrien. Apparently in Archibald Murrays papers held at the IWM it states that during the retreat from Mons in 1914 Forestier-Walker tired of SD's temper asked to be relieved from his post. Murray apparently told him not to be so stupid and get on with the job.

This is the first real eveidence of SD's temper that i have found where it may seem to be more than a grummpy old man thing which i had set in my mind. Of course it could be that Forestier-Walker could have been berated for something that was justified. I have recently heard that Haig in his diary did not have a good word to say about II corps staff work.

has anyone come across any of this previously?

comments

Arm.

Hi Arm, a bit tangential this but I've got the uniform of Major, later Lt Col Forestier Walker of the Royal Monmouthshire Royal Enigineers (cuff rank). It was the subject of an article in the armourer last year. I thisnk there were a couple of branches to the family though....

Jonathan

[Cymro]

Today whilst standing in my local library, more commonly known to the rest of Leicester shoppers as Borders bookshop, I was skimming through Richard Holmes bio of Sir John French for info on some men i am researching. (It is a habit of mine to pick up any book on WW1 and check the index for Forestier-Walker)

Not to surprised was i to find a reference, given FW's involvement with II corps and Smith-Dorrien during 1914. But i was surprised to find the reference seeming to back up Sir Johns dislike of Smith-Dorrien. Apparently in Archibald Murrays papers held at the IWM it states that during the retreat from Mons in 1914 Forestier-Walker tired of SD's temper asked to be relieved from his post. Murray apparently told him not to be so stupid and get on with the job.

This is the first real eveidence of SD's temper that i have found where it may seem to be more than a grummpy old man thing which i had set in my mind. Of course it could be that Forestier-Walker could have been berated for something that was justified. I have recently heard that Haig in his diary did not have a good word to say about II corps staff work.

has anyone come across any of this previously?

comments

Arm.

Hi Arm, a bit tangential this but I've got the uniform of Major, later Lt Col Forestier Walker of the Royal Monmouthshire Royal Enigineers (cuff rank). It was the subject of an article in the armourer last year. I thisnk there were a couple of branches to the family though....

Jonathan

Sloppy typing - apologies...!

[armourersergeant]

I am unsure of when this attempt to resign his position came in the retreat but we are talking a short period of time regardless. What concerns me is that he should feel compelled to resign giving SD's moods as the reason.

As a commander SD would want his BGGS to be on 'his side', especially given the circumstances he was facing with French. Perhaps FW got used to it and they worked well in the future as he was with him until Feb 1915. Though in later years Forestier-Walker was not always eager to back up Smith-Dorriens defence as you would expect, when asked about the events of 1914, he apparently said his memory was lacking. (quoted by Beckett in his intro to the edited publication of Smith-Dorriens 'the Judgement of History') When this was i do not know and he may still have been serving in Salonika and thus unwilling to soil a declining career even further!

As i have said before it just makes me wonder how bad this temper was and if bad would this have effected his attitude to command had he servived the 'French purge' in 1915?

regards

Arm.

[armourersergeant]

Jonathan,

There were one or two family lines in the army. I do recall reading something of a Colonel Forestier-Walker. My FW traces his roots back to a General walker who was in charge of a brigade that stormed Badajoz with Wellington in Spain. It may well be that this relation also had the same Grandfather or great grandfather.

Do you have a copy of the article? that you could scan and e-mail me?

pretty please.

regards

Arm.

[Cymro]

Jonathan,

There were one or two family lines in the army. I do recall reading something of a Colonel Forestier-Walker. My FW traces his roots back to a General walker who was in charge of a brigade that stormed Badajoz with Wellington in Spain. It may well be that this relation also had the same Grandfather or great grandfather.

Do you have a copy of the article? that you could scan and e-mail me?

pretty please.

regards

Arm.

I'm afraid I havent got a scanner, but I'd be happy to send you a copy if you wish - PM me if you do.

Best wishes

Jonathan

[Anthony Pigott]

Though in later years Forestier-Walker was not always eager to back up Smith-Dorriens defence as you would expect, when asked about the events of 1914, he apparently said his memory was lacking. (quoted by Beckett in his intro to the edited publication of Smith-Dorriens 'the Judgement of History')

It's not clear from Beckett which of the '1914' accusations FW apparently could not remember.

However in Smithers (p237) FW is quoted, in response to the 'councel of despair' accusation, as "I, who must have seen more of the General at that time than anyone else and have had far better opportunity of seeing him in such moods, if he did indulge in them, do most emphatically assert that from first to last of my intimate relationship with him I never saw him in a mood which could possibly be described as deep depression....

I guess one needs to see the original documents to be sure of all this.

Regards

Anthony

[Anthony Pigott]

Though in later years Forestier-Walker was not always eager to back up Smith-Dorriens defence as you would expect, when asked about the events of 1914, he apparently said his memory was lacking. (quoted by Beckett in his intro to the edited publication of Smith-Dorriens 'the Judgement of History')

It's not clear from Beckett which of the '1914' accusations FW apparently could not remember.

However in Smithers (p237) FW is quoted, in response to the 'councel of despair' accusation, as "I, who must have seen more of the General at that time than anyone else and have had far better opportunity of seeing him in such moods, if he did indulge in them, do most emphatically assert that from first to last of my intimate relationship with him I never saw him in a mood which could possibly be described as deep depression....

I guess one needs to see the original documents to be sure of all this.

Regards

Anthony

Just to be clear, having re-read the bits in Beckett, the FM quote above is also in S.-D.'s document reproduced in Beckett (p58) and refers to the meeting on October 14.

That same document also contains at least two further contributions from FW, in some detail, supporting S.-D.'s position.

These are dated 3/8/19 whereas the footnote apparently referring to the statement about FW not remembering in Beckett's Introduction includes reference to a document from FW dated 23/5/19. Curious.

Anthony

[armourersergeant]

On quick re-reading of the statement in regard to FW's backing etc, i can concur that for someone who had a bad memeory he seems to remember quiet a bit to help his former commander. It would be interesting to know what he could not recall?

regards

Arm.