skinumb Posted 3 November , 2008 Share Posted 3 November , 2008 I've just looked at my granddad's MIC which has him as Pte on re-enlistment and later Sjt. He was in the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). I always write rifleman and sergeant when describing him. I've a mind now to switch to serjeant if that reflects the way his contemporaries knew him. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 3 November , 2008 Share Posted 3 November , 2008 Sergeant rather than Serjeant and if it is good enough for the Rifles it is good enough for me Anthony, Just to clarify, the modern-day regiment, The Rifles, uses the spelling serjeant. This is from The Rifles website: "The Rifles march at 140 paces per minute, much faster than that of the rest of the Infantry who march at 120. A private soldier in The Rifles is known as a Rifleman and sergeant is spelt serjeant." If I understand correctly, The Rangers were originally affiliated as the 8th Volunteer Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps, then became 12th Btn (The Rangers) London Regiment with Haldane in 1908. The Rangers were re-affiliated to the KRRC between the wars, becoming 9th & 10th Btn, KRRC in WW2. They then became 4th (Volunteer) Btn Royal Green Jackets. Further tortuous re-alignments followed before they finally ended up within F & G coys, 7th Btn, The Rifles. I'd say use of the appellation Rifleman for privates in The Rangers would be entirely appropriate, even though technically they belonged to the London Regiment during the Great War. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Gorst Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 Anthony, Just to clarify, the modern-day regiment, The Rifles, uses the spelling serjeant. This is from The Rifles website: "The Rifles march at 140 paces per minute, much faster than that of the rest of the Infantry who march at 120. A private soldier in The Rifles is known as a Rifleman and sergeant is spelt serjeant." If I understand correctly, The Rangers were originally affiliated as the 8th Volunteer Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps, then became 12th Btn (The Rangers) London Regiment with Haldane in 1908. The Rangers were re-affiliated to the KRRC between the wars, becoming 9th & 10th Btn, KRRC in WW2. They then became 4th (Volunteer) Btn Royal Green Jackets. Further tortuous re-alignments followed before they finally ended up within F & G coys, 7th Btn, The Rifles. I'd say use of the appellation Rifleman for privates in The Rangers would be entirely appropriate, even though technically they belonged to the London Regiment during the Great War. Cheers, Mark Mark Thanks on reflection I think Rifleman and Serjeant with a note on ranks etc on the main page (indecisive me? surely not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 be aware that 'Rifleman' and 'Guardsman' only became official after the war ended, although 'Rifleman' had a long and honourable existence, it was never recognised by Q or KR and Pay Warrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 18th County of London battalion, London Regiment, London Irish Rifles, referred to their private soldiers as "Rifleman" prior to, during and after WW1 until in 1968, with the formation of the Royal Irish Rangers, they became "Ranger" and are still called this today to mark their connection with that short lived regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 4 November , 2008 Share Posted 4 November , 2008 be aware that 'Rifleman' and 'Guardsman' only became official after the war ended, although 'Rifleman' had a long and honourable existence, it was never recognised by Q or KR and Pay Warrants. Grumpy's quite right to make this point. This is not the only example of regimental tradition contradicting "official" Army-ese: see the recent topic on Welsh and Welch for example! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agedpink Posted 19 December , 2008 Share Posted 19 December , 2008 I know this is probably a dumb question to you old Sweats (I am only a beginner) but why is my Great Uncles rank spelt SERJEANT and not SERGEANT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 19 December , 2008 Share Posted 19 December , 2008 I am sure that if you use the search button at the top you will find extensive discussion on this old favourite, but come back for more if you are not illuminated!. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviltaxman Posted 19 December , 2008 Share Posted 19 December , 2008 I found this a while ago (can't remember where) but I've used it on my site and have no comments on it (yet). "CWGC (Commonwealth War Graves Commission) are under instruction from the British MoD and the New Zealand military authorities to spell 'Serjeant' with a 'J' for army casualties from WW1 and WW2 plus RFC/RAF for WW1. According to the information supplied to the CWGC by the MoD, the British Army still officially spelt it with a 'J' until November 1953 - regardless of how it was spelt in real life. All Australian, Canadian and South African troops are spelt as 'Sergeant'." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agedpink Posted 20 December , 2008 Share Posted 20 December , 2008 I told you I was a begginner! Thanks for sorting it out for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st_east_yorks Posted 22 July , 2009 Share Posted 22 July , 2009 Good morning all, Just a quick question ; Is there any reason for the two types of spelling for sargeant (sarjeant) often seen on WW1 headstones? Does this denote a difference between the ranks or is it just a spelling thing? Thanks, Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingo794 Posted 22 July , 2009 Share Posted 22 July , 2009 There are no differences in the rank, it is just a spelling thing. Down to interpretation at the time. Sergeant is the modern way of it being spelled, but I have seen maybe three or four ways of spelling it on various documents. The abbreviations differ too. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw63 Posted 22 July , 2009 Share Posted 22 July , 2009 Hi, The most common spelling is "Sergeant". Rifle regiments used to spell it with a "J", but it's the same basic rank. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 22 July , 2009 Share Posted 22 July , 2009 Do a search. This thread is in danger of replicating an earlier one on the same subject. This contained some interesting information as to where and when the variations occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st_east_yorks Posted 22 July , 2009 Share Posted 22 July , 2009 Thanks Simon, I appreciate your help. Sean. Thank you for your speedy response Dick. Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwenlock Posted 24 July , 2009 Share Posted 24 July , 2009 The Rifles still spell it with a "J" Regards OY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 24 July , 2009 Share Posted 24 July , 2009 Read the GWF suggestions and listen to Centurion. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 24 July , 2009 Share Posted 24 July , 2009 I query the spelling with an 'a'. You would be more likely to get results by using 'sergeant' and 'serjeant' as the search terms. However, to save you some time, see this thread and follow the links in post 4. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 24 July , 2009 Share Posted 24 July , 2009 According to a talk I heard by John Titford recently about English dialects, the use of Ser- rather than the phonetic Sar- in sergeant is a remnant of a vowel shift - likewise the town-name Derby. He claimed that, until relatively recently, 'er' within a word was pronounced 'ahhh'. Herbert would have been sounded as Harbart and servant as sarvant. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 24 July , 2009 Share Posted 24 July , 2009 In Middle English, the word was variously sergeaunt and seriaunt. In Old French, the word was sergent (as now) or serjent, which is how the soft j came into use in the English pronunciation. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted 24 July , 2009 Share Posted 24 July , 2009 May have come over with the Conquerer. I know Gen. Wormald's batman listed himself as a "Sjt". Good morning all, Just a quick question ; Is there any reason for the two types of spelling for sargeant (sarjeant) often seen on WW1 headstones? Does this denote a difference between the ranks or is it just a spelling thing? Thanks, Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 24 July , 2009 Share Posted 24 July , 2009 He claimed that, until relatively recently, 'er' within a word was pronounced 'ahhh'. Herbert would have been sounded as Harbart and servant as sarvant. Keith That sounds like the accents around Boston, Massachusetts, or the Chesapeake Bay which are said to be closer to old English than today's English. A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 24 July , 2009 Share Posted 24 July , 2009 Honestly I would not become excited about the spelling. For example. The CWGC record my Uncle as a Sjt and this is embossed on his medals,whereas the Battalion War Diary and his Obituary address and praise him as Sgt. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KevinEndon Posted 8 September , 2010 Share Posted 8 September , 2010 CWGC has all serjeants written with the J instead of a G until I spotted this Name: HEALY Initials: M Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Serjeant Regiment/Service: Royal Munster Fusiliers Unit Text: 2nd Bn. Age: 25 Date of Death: 02/03/1917 Service No: 5130 Awards: A M, D C M, M M and Bar Additional information: Son of Mrs. Annie Healy, of Ballinamuck, Dungarvan, Co. Waterford. A War Office letter (68/Albert/109/A.G.10) records the following:-"On 1st March, 1917, this non-commissioned officer, with a total disregard for his own personal safety and solely prompted by the desire to save his comrades, rushed to pick up a live bomb which had been thrown by a Private and which struck the parapet and rolled back into the trench near Lieutenant Roe and the Private. Sergeant Healy, fearing the party could not escape in time, made a most gallant attempt to seize and hurl the bomb from the trench. It exploded, however, and mortally wounded him. This was the last of Sergeant Healy's many acts of gallantry and devotion to duty. He was previously awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal and the Military Medal and later a bar to his Military Medal.". Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: II. B. 53. Cemetery: BRAY MILITARY CEMETERY On this one he is down as SerJeant Healy but the blogg has SerGeant, surely the commission should have 1 or the other and as headstones use the J should they not change the spelling in the blogg. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 8 September , 2010 Share Posted 8 September , 2010 I understand the convention is SerJeant for WW1 and SerGeant for WW2. Obviously they missed the TWO in the Additional Information, presumably that was sent in to them by the family using the WW2 spelling. It does seem likely that it would have been the LAST of his many acts of bravery, too!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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