The Somme and Normandy compared

[Guest exuser1]

The one thing i would add forget numbers and stats ect but speaking to my dad who served in WW2 in Normandy and was serverly wounded after Caen serving as radio operator OPX in a Bren Carrier ,who witnesed some frightining situations ,watching Canadians hand to hand fighting ,artillery falling on German armour he had called in ,and his unit being hit by the gallent RAF ,he would then say "oh but it wasent that bad ,as yer granddad had the first lot and trust me son we would not have put up with all of that " so perhaps its persepsion of the situation ,out of intrest Granddad served pre Great war 8th Hussars ,then 4th Hussars from August 14 untill wounded and sent home in 15 and then ireland for the duration .And reading his diaries spent most of 14 being chased by Hun cavalry ,then in line 15 and being hit when haveing a wash early in the morning and wakeing up in hospital next to his brother wounded same day !

intrestingly most WW2 vets i talked to and i am of that generation when i started work as apprentice most of the lads were ex WW2 and worked with ex Chindits ,1940 Dunkirk lads ,D Day first wave and Arnhem lads ,they all had the same idea it was not as bad as dad had and we would not have stood a day in the trenches ?

[david lee]

The one thing i would add forget numbers and stats ect but speaking to my dad who served in WW2 in Normandy and was serverly wounded after Caen serving as radio operator OPX in a Bren Carrier ,who witnesed some frightining situations ,watching Canadians hand to hand fighting ,artillery falling on German armour he had called in ,and his unit being hit by the gallent RAF ,he would then say "oh but it wasent that bad ,as yer granddad had the first lot and trust me son we would not have put up with all of that " so perhaps its persepsion of the situation ,out of intrest Granddad served pre Great war 8th Hussars ,then 4th Hussars from August 14 untill wounded and sent home in 15 and then ireland for the duration .And reading his diaries spent most of 14 being chased by Hun cavalry ,then in line 15 and being hit when haveing a wash early in the morning and wakeing up in hospital next to his brother wounded same day !

intrestingly most WW2 vets i talked to and i am of that generation when i started work as apprentice most of the lads were ex WW2 and worked with ex Chindits ,1940 Dunkirk lads ,D Day first wave and Arnhem lads ,they all had the same idea it was not as bad as dad had and we would not have stood a day in the trenches ?

Hi hesmond,

Great reminiscences and memories. Though I trust your "gallant RAF" is a bit light hearted---'friendly fire' has been 'going on' as long as men have fought battles, and, of course, still goes on today.

The 'battle of Barking Creek' in Sept. 1939 saw (due to a fault at Canedown Radar station), Spitfires (74 squadron) attack Hurricanes (56 squadron), and shoot down two of them....just one sad example out of probably many, many, thousands in the long history of battle.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Guest exuser1]

Hi hesmond,

Great reminiscences and memories. Though I trust your "gallant RAF" is a bit light hearted---'friendly fire' has been 'going on' as long as men have fought battles, and, of course, still goes on today.

The 'battle of Barking Creek' in Sept. 1939 saw (due to a fault at Canedown Radar station), Spitfires (74 squadron) attack Hurricanes (56 squadron), and shoot down two of them....just one sad example out of probably many, many, thousands in the long history of battle.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Guest exuser1]

Hi yes sorry about the dig at the RAF ,but funny thing was for years he was convinced it was the USAAF but when a ex member published a history of the unit it was confirmed as RAF the problem was front had moved foward and lack of direct communication ,in fact in the end dad was not to upset being wounded as he said and here we go again with percepcation as he said after he went back to UK his officer took his replacement off as artillery liasion with the airborne to Arnhem and both were KIA ! and he adds also in May 45 his unit was posted to the Far East and was quite happy to miss that . Though on a serious note all the old lads i have ever spoke to worked with who served at the sharpe end in WW2 had their formative years growing up with fathers who had served on the Western front and have said to me would have done any thing than have gone through the trenches ?

[david lee]

Hi yes sorry about the dig at the RAF ,but funny thing was for years he was convinced it was the USAAF but when a ex member published a history of the unit it was confirmed as RAF the problem was front had moved foward and lack of direct communication ,in fact in the end dad was not to upset being wounded as he said and here we go again with percepcation as he said after he went back to UK his officer took his replacement off as artillery liasion with the airborne to Arnhem and both were KIA ! and he adds also in May 45 his unit was posted to the Far East and was quite happy to miss that . Though on a serious note all the old lads i have ever spoke to worked with who served at the sharpe end in WW2 had their formative years growing up with fathers who had served on the Western front and have said to me would have done any thing than have gone through the trenches ?

Hi hesmond,

Good man---- and very glad it 'all worked out' in the end

Indeed I recall reading somewhere that one of the main thoughts in the minds of the lads coming back from Dunkirk was that they had allowed to happen in a few weeks, what their fathers had not allowed in years of bitter fighting.

The men were the same, however. The war was different, and France was bereft of honour.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Guest exuser1]

Hi dave and back to figures again ! we all have a laugh at the French for 1940 ,and i have had a argument with my local gendarmes as they issued me a ticket for 90 euro i was saying that they should have had the same bolshi attiude in 1940 ect ect ,but most figures given for German casualties for 1940 show more dead and wounded after we evacuated in May/june ? and that the French casualties for this period was approaching 1914 numbers. though i was some what suprised to talk to a local old boy who farmed here in 1940 who stated befor the Germans i payed taxes and ploughed my fields ,and when the Germans came ,I payed my taxes and ploughed my fields ! and this is in the pas de Calais the so called Red Area of intense German military presence. in the past many historians seem to have blamed the french politicians and political turmoil of the 20s and 30s for the 40 debacle ,but as France had many problems leading up to 1914 ie Dreyfss, colapse of Napleon 3rd 1870 and the Commune ,they as we know gave an excellent account in the Great War ,i think the whole thing of French militrisem over the last 150 years is a very very confusing issue ? regards Gary

[phil andrade]

That is another very questionable claim : that the French death rate in two months in 1940 rivalled that of August to September 1914.

I do not think so.

On the other hand, it does appear that the Germans sustained their heaviest casualties in that campaign after the Dunkirk fighting, and that the French soldiers gave a much better account of themselves than is generally acknowledged.

And, it has to be said, the French did lose an awful lot of men killed ....but not as many as in the six weeks between August 20 and the end of September 1914.

This is another example of pendulum swing, rather like the perception of Normandy.

First, Normandy in 1944 is depicted as a clean and cheap victory : then there is a revision arguing that it was in some ways worse than the Somme....both are distorted perceptions. Same goes for France in 1940 : an initial caricature of mass French surrender with minimal resistance, followed by a revelation that the fatality rate was higher than it had been in 1914....not true, I reckon.

Phil (PJA)

[david lee]

That is another very questionable claim : that the French death rate in two months in 1940 rivalled that of August to September 1914.

I do not think so.

On the other hand, it does appear that the Germans sustained their heaviest casualties in that campaign after the Dunkirk fighting, and that the French soldiers gave a much better account of themselves than is generally acknowledged.

And, it has to be said, the French did lose an awful lot of men killed ....but not as many as in the six weeks between August 20 and the end of September 1914.

This is another example of pendulum swing, rather like the perception of Normandy.

First, Normandy in 1944 is depicted as a clean and cheap victory : then there is a revision arguing that it was in some ways worse than the Somme....both are distorted perceptions. Same goes for France in 1940 : an initial caricature of mass French surrender with minimal resistance, followed by a revelation that the fatality rate was higher than it had been in 1914....not true, I reckon.

Phil (PJA)

Hi hesmond, Phil,

I think to equate August and September with 1940 is VERY questionable, I agree Phil.

Terraine tells us that the French casualties in August 1914 amounted to 4,478 officers and 206,515 other ranks (12 days of actual fighting)....

But I did not mean to say the French fighting man was "bereft of honour". Surrender to most would have been as distasteful as the surrender of almost 100,000 British and dominion troops at Singapore---though the French had a far better chance of surving that surrender.

The French government was defeatist and corrupt---apart from a few individuals, of course.

After Dunkirk fell the massive German attack of, Shirer tells us, 143 German divisions (ten armoured) on a 400 mile front Abbeville to the upper Rhine, was faced by 65 second rate French divisions......little was left of the weak French air force"

Huntziger at the second armistice at Compiegne in 1940 told the German General Keitel that the surrender terms were "hard and merciless"........

He could have expected as much.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Guest exuser1]

Hi Dave Phil ,i agree as to the accuracy of the early 14 casualty rate of the French armies and it being in some way as equel to 1940 ,i only have to look at the local war memorials around the towns here many which carry on one memorial Crimea ,Mexico ,North Africa and other colonial wars then 1870 ,39/45 and of course Algiers and Indo China with out question the 14/18 are the largest names followed in some cases by the Crimea ! WW2 being well down the list , but here in my local area the dont mention the war question is Algiers ? the Paris Match for May 54 almost equates Dein Ben Pheu with the loss of Starlingrad on the French mind and the POW question simlar to ours with the Japanease POWs ect On the question of and i hate to say it in this way whats worst ? Somme or Normandy ? after visiting the Normandy area many times from 84 onwards Tilly and the fighing for that village seem awful ,the photos taken after its capture by the British could be any destroyed village on the Somme ?, the capture of Hill112 is anothe example of units being put through the meat grinder ,and these were relativly untested units who were up against pretty determined SS units , and i have read in a few accounts of Caen being called the Starlingrad of the West ? and yes it was flattened by the allies so were parts of Rouen but generally if some one said its Normandy or the Russian Front you are off to,then most people would opt for the West ? In speaking to vetreans many years ago and yes dont hang history on the memory of old men ,but these men were in there mid 50s and i am 54 ! now so stiil quite on the ball most of their memories recollections were of the country side ,dead cows ,sky filled with allied aircraft ,and at least one vet said the weather was lovely and it was the greatest time of my life ,and he was a tank driver in a Sherman ! the one man i did know well who had a terrible time was a ex gunner converted to a rifle unit sent to fight in Tilly and when the village finally fell his rifle company was completly broken up due to casualties and he only spoke about it in his 60s .

Over the years i did know a number of Great war vetarens none had the same type of humrous stories ,tales recolections they were all tinged with a sence of bitterness ,when my wife was a 18 year old student nurse in East London she looked after a tramp who had been gassed in 1918 and was still coughing up yellow bile in 1979 ! i had a short conversation with him his comments on the war are unprintable .

This argument put foward that the Normandy battles can equate in the same way as the Somme, to me and in my experience just does not ring true ,yes in other theaters of war their are allways the exceptional cases ,Kohima , some of the Island assaults carried out by the americans and i suppose the assault at Omaha ,but in general they do not i feel equel the overall experience of those who served on the Western Front in 14/18 ,in fact tomorrow i am takeing 2 Aussies to the Somme and one of the lads is a ex Vietnam vet his opnion will be intresting ?

[phil andrade]

Your posts are very heartfelt, and command my deep respect, hesmond.

I think you say it better than I do.

Phil (PJA)

[Guest exuser1]

Phil many thanks for your comments , i do feel that in some ways we need to adress the balance between Great War mindless slaughter ,lions Led By Donkeys ,Chatau generals ect 3 years a go i saw for the first time on stage Oh What A Lovely War ! and during the interval i made a comment to the director this says more about the anti war movement of the 60s than the experience of the Great war ,ie comments taken out of context ect trust me it did not go down to well .. And almost in world war 2 it was all white Cliifs of Dover and Mrs Minever ,in reality the threat of bombing ,fear of the unknown and seeing what happened in occupied Europe, must have been awful, and the effect of combat in places such as Cassino ,Kohima ,and specific places on the western front would have been up with the worst the trenches could muster ,but the feeling i get from remanices of vetarens now passed and my own memories as a young lad hearing grand dad talk with his mates his, of the relentless day after day ,no end in sight as to when it would finish, at least with Normandy the feeling was we were on the road back and their is no stopping us ,but as we know in March 18 it was almost possibly over for the allies ? or that is what the lads belived ? i may be wrong . I just feel that to many historians now feel to get that TV programe ,next book you need to spark contrversy ,in fact a freind of mine who is a world renowned author on British army of the Napleonic wars fumes when he sees some of the statements made by some historians to get published and become a name. Sorry sounds like a rant now ,Cheers .

[Robert Dunlop]

It is important to re-emphasize that the British experiences of war on the Western Front in WW2 were predicated on the tremendous struggle that took place on the Eastern Front. Had Britain taken on the Soviet Union's role in WW2, then this discussion would be very different!

Robert

[phil andrade]

It is important to re-emphasize that the British experiences of war on the Western Front in WW2 were predicated on the tremendous struggle that took place on the Eastern Front. Had Britain taken on the Soviet Union's role in WW2, then this discussion would be very different!

Robert

Indeed....we wouldn't be having it, would we ?

Phil (PJA)

[horrocks]

This has been an interesting and at times invigorating thread. In the course of my further ruminations on comparisons between the two campaigns it occurs that there is quite possibly one individual battle stands out as bearing a quite direct comparison with the multifarious Somme offensives - Omaha Beach. It was the possibly the one major action of the campaign in which naked infantry were pitched against a prepared, fortified, wired and well protected defensive line and to do so by and large without the protection of armour. The wide and long stretch of beach from the waterline to the German defensive positions was the direct equivalent of the no man's land of the earlier war, and the infantry were compelled to cross it. Attempts to land amphibious tanks were largely a failure here, as were those to crater the beach with naval artillery in order to provide some form of cover for the attackers. The earlier air and naval bombardments had failed to crack or even severely degrade the German defence. The men were therefore pitched directly against machine guns and artillery positioned on elevated ground, and had to endure concentrated direct and enfilade fire, as well as observed artillery fire from batteries set back from the beach. However, once the attackers finally began to infiltrate between the strong points in the mid-morning, and to work their way up the bluff behind the beach, the die was cast, for unlike on the Somme, there was no prepared second or third defensive line, and the Germans were too thinly spread to be able to deploy an effective counterattack force. It was though very much touch and go whether the assault would succeed, or whether the invading troops would be thrown back into the sea. And it is interesting to consider that the defences, a series of interlinked, wired and protected and fortified strongpoints, were constructed around defence theories that began to be developed by the Germans as the Battle of The Somme progressed.

Omaha Beach is characterised by a wide, open and (at low tide) deep expanse of quite flat sand, a low sea wall, and the overlooking bluffs. The sea wall provided some measure of cover, often illusory as it was pre-registered for mortars, but still safer than the flayed open beach. It therefore constituted one of the few battlegrounds in history where is was considered safer to advance towards the enemy's positions than to stay either on the open beach, or to retire.

I hope this doesn't diverge too much from the original topic of the thread - as we have seen, it is an interesting one that is quite difficult to constrain. I have found that Hesmond's recent posts have placed an interesting, rather more first-hand, context on the debate.

[Guest exuser1]

Intrestingly some years ago back in 1986 i had a chance to talk to Hienz Sevalo the 18 year old machine gunner when he payed a visit to the D Day museum he is the solider quoted in Invasion Their Comeing ! and The Longest Day ,he was convinced that only when his MG42 had to fire tracer that his postion was spoted and counterfire damaged his gun ,also another factor listed in a excellent book calledThe Far Shore ,in my experince the best account from the American experince of Omaha ,states that a problem for the German artillery of the 352 div at Omaha was the ready use ammo was removed 2 days befor to a safe postion behind the beach head ! so when it was needed on June 6 the artillery was isolated and soon run out of ammo ,evan though this book concerns WW2 it gives a excellent account of when things go wrong in battle ,they really go wrong ,? both for the assult troops and the defenders .

Point of intrest i today took two Aussie vietnam vets over the Somme ,one had a uncle killed with 12th bat Liverpool rgt and on Theipvale ,and during the day asked the question Somme ?or Normandy and the awnser right back was we would rather have done another tour of Nam than done any of this !

And today after doing the tour and yes i know we end up at all the usual cemeterys ,and i only managed to do the northen part of the field, the concentaction over the area of both the small and large cemetrys never fails to amaze me and that with out the names of the missing ,and when we visited Normandy for a number of years , and would drag the wife and kids all over the area there was never that sense of awe with the amount of cemetrys ,yes Omaha is very impresive and inspireing ? the British cemetry at Baeux which is located by the British field hospital is impressive as is theRainville with its Airborne lads ,the Polish cemetry is in some ways erie? but you just do not come away with the same feeling as with the Somme ?

Also today the weather was superb and the views back from Ulster Tower ,and from looking down on Serre the German gunners must of had a field day as those cemetrys bare out ?

[Guest exuser1]

This has been an interesting and at times invigorating thread. In the course of my further ruminations on comparisons between the two campaigns it occurs that there is quite possibly one individual battle stands out as bearing a quite direct comparison with the multifarious Somme offensives - Omaha Beach. It was the possibly the one major action of the campaign in which naked infantry were pitched against a prepared, fortified, wired and well protected defensive line and to do so by and large without the protection of armour. The wide and long stretch of beach from the waterline to the German defensive positions was the direct equivalent of the no man's land of the earlier war, and the infantry were compelled to cross it. Attempts to land amphibious tanks were largely a failure here, as were those to crater the beach with naval artillery in order to provide some form of cover for the attackers. The earlier air and naval bombardments had failed to crack or even severely degrade the German defense. The men were therefore pitched directly against machine guns and artillery positioned on elevated ground, and had to endure concentrated direct and enfilade fire, as well as observed artillery fire from batteries set back from the beach. However, once the attackers finally began to infiltrate between the strong points in the mid-morning, and to work their way up the bluff behind the beach, the die was cast, for unlike on the Somme, there was no prepared second or third defensive line, and the Germans were too thinly spread to be able to deploy an effective counterattack force. It was though very much touch and go whether the assault would succeed, or whether the invading troops would be thrown back into the sea. And it is interesting to consider that the defenses, a series of interlinked, wired and protected and fortified strongpoints, were constructed around defence theories that bagan to be developed by the Germans as the Battle of The Somme progressed.

Omaha Beach is characterised by a wide, open and (at low tide) deep expanse of quite flat sand, a low sea wall, and the overlooking bluffs. The sea wall provided some measure of cover, often illusory as it was pre-registered for mortars, but still safer than the flayed open beach. It therefore constituted one of the few battlegrounds in history where is was considered safer to advance towards the enemy's positions than to stay either on the open beach, or to retire.

I hope this doesn't diverge too much from the original topic of the thread - as we have seen, it is an interesting one that is quite difficult to constrain. I have found that Hesmond's recent posts have placed an interesting, rather more first-hand, context on the debate.

[Guest exuser1]

Toby totally agree with your comments on Omaha ,intrestingly a French book here equates the defenses overlooking Omaha as a fortress built on sand !

[bill24chev]

Good Morning

The similarities of Omaha beach and the Somme(especially 1st July) also go back to the society that the troops came from. Like the New Army and TF Divisions the 29th US Div recruited at a local,territoriallevel from the National Guard. A book I have read "The Bedford Boys" tells the story of the effect of the casualties on a small American comunity. It mirrors Belfast,Acrington etc in July 1916.

Bill

[horrocks]

I saw some relatively recent footage of Hein Severloh being interviewed about his actions on Ohama only a couple of days ago. He apparently died early in 2006. Some of his earlier claims of both the strength (or as he had it, the weakness) of the defending force, and of the number of casualties that he inflicted with his machine gun, are controversial. I believe that there has also been some controversy over the apparent number of men from Bedford who became casualties on Omaha, with recent claims on the part of a British author that numbers were exaggerated. Do I hear already echoes of Corrigan!?

[Guest exuser1]

Hi at some point i understood that Severloh did not want identfeying as the machine gunner at that particular point at Omaha for in some way obvious reasons ,in some way reflects the way that Great war machine gunners on the German army army would remove the arm of service badge , and rember the Linburgh baby case in Amercia, the prosecuation made a big point that Hoffman had been a machine gunner in the Great war ! yes we digress ,at some point Severloh made a comment that the only reason his kill ratio was lower ,yes a horrible comment, was there was nothing else left to fire at ? but i was present at one disscusion debating the damage done by his MG postion on the 29th which was simpley based on "oh rate of fire of MG 42 ,and how long he was in a postion to operate his MG " and back to figures again as to ammo expended and casualities claimed ? though i would understand that if severlogh was in a fixed postion with the number 3 of the team as his wooden eye spoting for targets he would only be responsible for a very narrow front ,and the figures i have heard for his gun do not ring true ?

In fact the only way to prove disprove if the infomation was avaliable ,was a very accurate casaulty report for cause of death ,to the sections known to be on Severlohs section of beach ? an impossibe task ?

Which may then show that as in the Great War artillery was the main cause of death ?

But if we go back to the orginal core begining of the argument ie G Corrigans argument that Normandy casuaulty figures amongst rifle companys was as bad if not worse than the Somme ? and yes its rude to critic i go back to a earlier comment that in todays enviroment of History Channel documentrys and i rember him on the second Waterloo programe, some very questionable comments regarding Picton , and also if in the shrinking book market you need to be noticed ie a well known author on the Zulu war who had a book titled Zulu war the truth ! my thoughts being so your last 20 books on the subject were rubbish ? you need to yes a well used quote "sex up the subject ?"to get noticed ,published ,or asked to front a documentry ? My one comment to G Corrigan would be yes instances of the Normandy campaine were terrible , Tilly ,sitting in a useless British tank at Villers Bocarge knowing that the gun you had was useless and that the experinced ex russian front gunner sitting in his Tiger could pick you off at a mile ,or being a German driver who had to take the doors of his vehicle off so he can get out quicker to escape allied air support ,or going through the Falise Gap ,and i rember some years ago going through the Lane of Death still on the surface seeing human remains ,vehicle parts ,ect and if you were a French civillian in St Lo from 40 to 44 the Germans excuted 15 locals ,and in June when allied bombing killed 2000 ,go to the Peace Museum in Caen and listen to the interview of the women who comdems the allies note its not played in English . BUT to me one important diffrence with the Somme and from 15 onwards else where in many fronts in the Great War and the one comment made by many ex WW2 vets is " we never had gas " all i can rember is the old man coughing !