Roman Catholic Cross

[ATNOMIS]

Pals

I have been given lots of WW1/WW2 stuff from my Aunty who is clearing out my Nan's stuff. Nan has been dead since 1983.

So I started a thread 56876 PTE W J JESSOP L 'POOL REGT

I have no idea about the cross. I have WW2 German medals amoungst the stuff but this looks older than WW2. Only thing about WW2 is the skull and cross bone at the bottom of the cross.

Any ideas I'd love to know. In my display case does it live with my Great Granddad's things? Or my Granddad's things?

Regards

Atnomis/Simon

[nigelcave]

The crucifix could well be (but not necessarily) WWI. Do not be fooled or misled by the skull and crossbones at the base - this is of religious significance.

[ATNOMIS]

The crucifix could well be (but not necessarily) WWI. Do not be fooled or misled by the skull and crossbones at the base - this is of religious significance.

Nigel.

Thank you. I really believe it to be religious significance. I was just saying in the pouch it had some WW2 medals Iron Cross/ The Eastern Winter 1941/1942 Campaign Medal (Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/1942 medaille/East Front Medal) aswell as the crucifix.

My Dads side where the pouch came from are RC, and Ive been told Great Grandad and Grandad to a crucifix thoughout the wars.

Hope this Helps

Simon

[James Blonde]

Have you considered that the Cross itself could well be of German origin,

I saw many wooden crucifixes both carried and placed on house walls while living

in the Bavarian region of the Allgäu over the years I lived there.

Connaught Stranger.

[ATNOMIS]

Have you considered that the Cross itself could well be of German origin,

I saw many wooden crucifixes both carried and placed on house walls while living

in the Bavarian region of the Allgäu over the years I lived there.

Connaught Stranger.

Connaught Stranger

I have thought it to be German. My Great Grandad John Farrell, was in 8th East lancs in The Great war. My Grandad Gildea was in WW2. It might have been picked up in France in WW1 and with my Grandad off to war Great Gd might of pasted it on to him.

My Avatar picture is of SGt J Farrell.

I don't know. I believe it to be RC and well used in the past as it has been rubbed and kissed etc.

It has not seen day light until a month or so.

Regards

Simon

[nigelcave]

Whilst it could be German it could equally be British - I have seen a number of similar crucifixes of the same type that were for the British 'market', though often made abroad (Belgium was a favoured manufacturer of such articles, for example).

[IPT]

Google says it is a pectoral cross.

Apparently the skull and crossbones was a normal part of a crucifix, signifying Christ overcoming death, until it fell out of favour.

Here are a number of very similar items;

http://www.google.co.uk/search?um=1&hl=en&rlz=1R2RNWN_en-GBGB359&biw=1260&bih=667&site=search&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=pectoral+cross+crossbones&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

[ATNOMIS]

Google says it is a pectoral cross.

Apparently the skull and crossbones was a normal part of a crucifix, signifying Christ overcoming death, until it fell out of favour.

Here are a number of very similar items;

http://www.google.co...=f&aqi=&aql==

Many thanks. Solved. Just need to know it's age now.

Regards

Simon

[militariaone]

Greetings Simon, while I did not see age mentioned if you go to this website http://www.rosaryworkshop.com/MUSEUM-CRUCIFIXES-MB-European.htm you will see a section about 1/3 down the page labeled “Traditionally-German” While it’s by no means a direct match to the one you have posted it is materially similar in construction. So much so, that I’d bet if not made by the same manufacturer then definitely from the same region. In this case German, as mentioned earlier by Connaught Stranger. Either case, I thought you’d enjoy its similarities with yours.

Regards,

Lance

P.S. For what it’s worth I have a Large (20’’X 12’’) WWI Trench Art Crucifix made from large pieces of shrapnel that came out of Belgium with the ”Skull and Cross bones” “Heaven and Hell” motif on it as well. No story came with it, but that similarity is what piqued my interest in your post. I always thought it was Belgian, but who knows now. Thank you for your original posting.

[ATNOMIS]

Greetings Simon, while I did not see age mentioned if you go to this website http://www.rosaryworkshop.com/MUSEUM-CRUCIFIXES-MB-European.htm you will see a section about 1/3 down the page labeled "Traditionally-German" While it's by no means a direct match to the one you have posted it is materially similar in construction. So much so, that I'd bet if not made by the same manufacturer then definitely from the same region. In this case German, as mentioned earlier by Connaught Stranger. Either case, I thought you'd enjoy its similarities with yours.

Regards,

Lance

P.S. For what it's worth I have a Large (20''X 12'') WWI Trench Art Crucifix made from large pieces of shrapnel that came out of Belgium with the "Skull and Cross bones" "Heaven and Hell" motif on it as well. No story came with it, but that similarity is what piqued my interest in your post. I always thought it was Belgian, but who knows now. Thank you for your original posting.

Lance

Thank you very much for your reply. Fantastic stuff. So my thoughts of "It might have been picked up in France in WW1" maybe right.

Once again Thank you.

Simon

[James Blonde]

Lance

Thank you very much for your reply. Fantastic stuff. So my thoughts of "It might have been picked up in France in WW1" maybe right.

Once again Thank you.

Simon

It might just have easily have been picked up along with the WW2 medals as well.

Connaught Stranger.

[ph0ebus]

Does the cross have any sort of maker's mark or hallmarking?

-Daniel

[ATNOMIS]

It might just have easily have been picked up along with the WW2 medals as well.

Connaught Stranger.

True.

Does the cross have any sort of maker's mark or hallmarking?

-Daniel

Not that i can see I do more pictures later.

Simon

[Peter Mc]

Simon

This crucifix is a fairly common design and I have exactly the same one albeit in a far dirtier condition. It may well have been manufactured abroad but was commonly sold in RC outlets - like the 'holy shop' as we Scousers called one such place on Bold St.

I have only scanned the reverse - camera problems/lighting prevented a shot of the obverse.

By repute, this was carried by my grandfather throughout his years in the RIC and indeed shows much more dirt and grease from handling than would be expected from lying in a drawer for the past 90 years. My family arrived in Liverpool in 1924 so there was no WW1 connection regarding this and no Great War service in the extended family.

I'm also not aware of any local 'issue' of crucifixes to servicemen in the Great War but out of interest in WW2 a bakelite cross was given to servicemen. My father was given this example, he said it was only issued to RC troops. I saw the same cross in the museum in Malta a few years ago and as I recall it was claimed that a certain Archbishop paid for its manufacture. I've not been able to verify that.

[ATNOMIS]

'holy shop' as we Scousers

Peter

Thank you. My Dads side are from the Fantastic City of Liverpool, Farrell and Gildea's (Pengwern Grove Liverpool) and my Aunty/Cousins are all in Liverpool. I myself go to that Great hill of Histroy the Kop most weekends and on silly o'clock when the tv have it. Can you believe 12 o'clock on a Sunday!!!

Regards

Simon

[nigelcave]

Google says it is a pectoral cross.

Apparently the skull and crossbones was a normal part of a crucifix, signifying Christ overcoming death, until it fell out of favour.

Here are a number of very similar items;

http://www.google.co.uk/search?um=1&hl=en&rlz=1R2RNWN_en-GBGB359&biw=1260&bih=667&site=search&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=pectoral+cross+crossbones&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

WHilst this may well be so, this is a bit misleading, as pectoral crosses are usually associated with bishops - though it is true that this is not exclusively so - for example, Abbots and Prior are likely to wear them and some religious congregations, particularly those of sisters. Certainly it has the loop for holding a chain or something similar for it to be hung around the neck.

[James Blonde]

WHilst this may well be so, this is a bit misleading, as pectoral crosses are usually associated with bishops - though it is true that this is not exclusively so - for example, Abbots and Prior are likely to wear them and some religious congregations, particularly those of sisters. Certainly it has the loop for holding a chain or something similar for it to be hung around the neck.

The type of cross pictured in post 1 can be found hanging from a nail in many homes in Bavaria, Germany, particularly in country homes, usually one corner of the kitchen has a small shrine with crucifix and a picture of Jesus & Mary, and sometimes pictures of deceased members of the family present.

The Skull & Crossbones motif is present on nearly all Crucifix seen in this area including large wooden ones in ornate wooden cabinets.

Connaught Stranger.

[CROONAERT]

Whilst it could be German it could equally be British - I have seen a number of similar crucifixes of the same type that were for the British 'market', though often made abroad (Belgium was a favoured manufacturer of such articles, for example).

It's almost identical to the one carried by my Gt.Grandad (10th Hussars) throughout the Boer War 1899-1902. ... ... he was C of E.

dave

[Grovetown]

I'm a 'good' Catholic boy; and we have these knocking around too. One of my late father's is the closest one to that in question and I would say that it is 1) not necessarily Catholic by any stretch; 2) by no means necessarily WW1 and 3) far from necessarily German.

Cheers,

GT.

[wainfleet]

The skull and crossbones is simply a "memento mori", ie. a reminder that you are mortal and should therefore keep in mind the consequences of this life's actions in the next one! The same motif is frequently seen in this country on Georgian tombstones, where it serves the same function, as do the grim skeletal effigies sometimes seen on medieval tombs. It's not a denominational thing.

[Rob Bulloch]

A similar cross among the effects of a soldier killed in France, Along with the cross some coins and a very tiny medallion with the complete Lords Prayer on it, I do not know if it will show up on the photographs it is about the same size as a silver threepenny piece.

[keithfazzani]

I'm a 'good' Catholic boy; and we have these knocking around too. One of my late father's is the closest one to that in question and I would say that it is 1) not necessarily Catholic by any stretch; 2) by no means necessarily WW1 and 3) far from necessarily German.

Cheers,

GT.

If this cross, more accurately crucifix, is late 19th century, early 20th century then it could easily belong to a member of the C of E. At this time the Oxford Movement or Catholic Revival was a very strong movement in the C of E. The priests belonging to this movement were often found ministering in more working class areas of the country as they saw their mission as being particularly to that group. Therefore any number of young soldiers could have had a such an item amongst their belongings.