How is a soldier def' KIA if theresno known grave?

[steve fuller]

If someone confirmed the soldier in question was KIA, would the source etc. have been recorded in some way?

And how did people KNOW he was KIA if there is no grave to 'prove' it and no record in the Battalions Diaries?

Thanks everyone

Steve

[Paul Reed]

Remember no known grave doesn't necessarily mean 'blown to pieces' - I have researched soldiers who died of wounds, but have no known grave - they were once buried, but their grave later destroyed and lost through shell fire.

There was a degree of enquiry at the time to see how soldiers had died, particularly if they were missing, but if a soldier was known to be present on the morning of an attack, not present at an evening roll call, and seen by his comrades to have disappeared somewhere near the German wire (for example), he will be listed as 'killed in action'.

That bland statement no doubt masks many sad and forgotten fates on the battlefields of the Great War...

[steve fuller]

he will be listed as 'killed in action'.

That bland statement no doubt masks many sad and forgotten fates on the battlefields of the Great War...

Paul; yep, looks like Ive got 'one of those' forgotten souls. By the family and his missing service records etc. Happens though, doesnt it.

He was KIA in the 2nd day of Op Michael (having done his TF service, then blooded in Gallipoli) so good odds that his burial was 'destroyed' in some way in the following 6 months' actions across that ground (no known grave).

Oh well, will keep plodding on!!! Thank you

Steve

[Simon Furnell]

Hello Steve.

This is something i have always wondered about as well.

My Great-grandad has no known grave,and is on The Pozieres Memorial.

I have the war diary for this period,and it is all a little vague.

It shows officers KIA,by name,but NCO's and other ranks,are just numbers.

That is not surprising,considering the turnover of these men,during the war.

I know i read,somewhere,of an Army Vicar,who buried men and then noted their position,as a reference,using the Trench maps of the time.

Maybe worth a look at the Army,Chaplins,service records,for his Brigade,or Division.

I noticed you said he was KIA,during the March Offensives,of 1918,and was 2nd line Territorial.

May i ask,which Battalion?

Keep plodding.

Thats all i do.

All the best.

Simon.

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

When Jakob Hönes was discovered last summer near Serre he was listed as killed in action, no known grave. All indications were that he was wrapped in a groundsheet before being placed in thelocation where he was eventually discovered. The death was reported to the unit, to the authorities and finally to the family.

Ralph

[Blackblue]

Steve,

Another possibility is that he was initially posted as MIA when he didn't answer roll call after an action. After there was no explanation as to his whereabouts a board of inquiry would be held within the battalion to determine his fate. If available witnesses who were the last to see the man would be called. He would then be declared KIA.

I have researched a number of men (AIF) who were posted as 'missing' or 'wounded and missing' after an action. Sometimes witnesses were present when a shell had exploded and the man was not seen again. Sometimes they had seen the man wounded and fall. Sometimes there was no idea of his fate. After the man had not turned up in a CCS or hospital a board of inquiry was finally held (in my experience sometimes up to eight months later) to determine thier fate at which time they were declared KIA on or about the date they were last seen.

Regards

Tim D

[Guest stevenbec]

I have two examples of such soldiers.

During the Battle of Amman between 27th to 30th March 1918 the Camel Brigade Anzac Bn's of which buried a number of soldier behind the Battle area.

The chaplain laid them in orderly graves and they were registered.

After the 30th March we had to retire across the Jordan river leving our graves behind.

now months later when we again push the Turks out of the city the gaves had disappeard.

Now these men were listed as KIA NOK (no known grave) and list on the Memorial in Jeusum.

And 2nd battle was 2nd Gaza where we had over 32 men list as KIA NKG as there bobies could not be found.

There were some bodies found but could not be IDentified as those with NKG so there names were not changed and the bodies would have been buried as Known unto God.

S.B

[steve fuller]

Hello Steve.

This is something i have always wondered about as well.

My Great-grandad has no known grave,and is on The Pozieres Memorial.

I have the war diary for this period,and it is all a little vague.

It shows officers KIA,by name,but NCO's and other ranks,are just numbers.

That is not surprising,considering the turnover of these men,during the war.

I know i read,somewhere,of an Army Vicar,who buried men and then noted their position,as a reference,using the Trench maps of the time.

Maybe worth a look at the Army,Chaplins,service records,for his Brigade,or Division.

I noticed you said he was KIA,during the March Offensives,of 1918,and was 2nd line Territorial.

May i ask,which Battalion?

Keep plodding.

Thats all i do.

All the best.

Simon.

Hi Simon

Same in many respects as your findings it seems

Mine was in the 7th Beds when KIA, although started life in teh TF, then 1/5th Beds (Gallipoli), and is on Poziers too. Didnt think of the Army chaplians, good idea that. Although it seems that his KIA was during the 10am or 4pm withdrawals around Failleouel on 23rd March, hence was not likely to be a British burial. Have the 7th Diaries and dont mention him either, so plodding is the word mate!! Still, could have worse things to plod on with eh?!

Who and where was your guy(s)?

Steve

[steve fuller]

Thanks guys

Given the nature of the withdrawal happening on the 23rd March 1918, its reasonable to accept that he'd have been lost in the chaos of the wounded and dead from both sides.

I still havent pinpointed when he was transferred from the medical system into the 7th Beds in France, so he could have been relatively new to the Btn for all I know, so may not have been 'missed' or noticed in all the activities around that time!

Interesting to learn about the discoveries of bodies still taking place though. Even now, after all this time too.

So Tim, it may be worth me looking at the diaries as far in advance as 9 months then? Ok, more reading tonight ...

Thanks very much gents

Steve

[Blackblue]

Steve,

I have no idea whether this information was included in war diaries. May be worth a look but I have not seen mention of a board of inquiry personally in war diaries.

Regards

Tim D