Bart150 Posted 17 May , 2011 Share Posted 17 May , 2011 The Queen is visiting the Irish National War Memorial in Dublin. This seems to commemorate only soldiers, not those who died serving in the Royal Navy. Anyone know how this came about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 17 May , 2011 Share Posted 17 May , 2011 Bart As far as I am aware, The Queen is visiting the Gardens of Remembrance which commemorates those who died in the post-WW1 Republican uprising which led to the partition ... the Irish National War Memorial at Islandbridge commemorates the dead of WW1. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 17 May , 2011 Share Posted 17 May , 2011 The WWI wreath laying takes place tomorrow in the War Memorial Gardens in Islandbridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 17 May , 2011 Share Posted 17 May , 2011 Depaor - thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart150 Posted 21 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2011 The Queen is visiting the Irish National War Memorial in Dublin. This seems to commemorate only soldiers, not those who died serving in the Royal Navy. Anyone know how this came about? It seems that nobody knows the answer to this question, or else nobody cares about it. Here is another question: What counts as an Irishman for the purposes of this memorial? Plainly somebody who (1) was born in Ireland AND (2) lived in Ireland AND (3) served in an Irish regiment qualifies. But what about somebody who only meets one or two of these criteria? I can't find any clarity on this in any of the obvious places on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 21 May , 2011 Share Posted 21 May , 2011 "This seems to commemorate only soldiers, not those who died serving in the Royal Navy. Anyone know how this came about?" I've never been to it but I thought the Irish National War Memorial commemorated everyone who was recorded in IMR not just the Army: ie: the Royal Navy, RNR, RNVR, RN Division, RNAS & RAF casualties who are also listed. Not forgetting also the Irishmen who served in forces from Australia to the United States. "Here is another question: What counts as an Irishman for the purposes of this memorial?" Anyone born in Ireland who wore any Allied uniform. ie only criteria (1) is needed. Anyone born elsewhere in the world who wore any Irish regiment uniform. ie only criteria (3) is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart150 Posted 21 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2011 Thanks, Ulsterlad2. That's very interesting. A number of descriptions of the memorial on the internet do say 'soldiers' and often 'army' too. It's quite possible, I think, that they all derive from one particular source which was itself inaccurately written. That does happen on the internet. I'm interested in this matter because I have an uncle who might be on the memorial: Denis Joseph O'Brien, Royal Navy, born county Cork, died Battle of Coronel 1914. Searching the internet for the term ‘IMR’ that you mentioned I found this description: Ancestry.com. Ireland, Casualties of World War I, 1914-1918 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc., 2009. Original data: The Committee of the Irish National War Memorial, comp. Ireland’s Memorial Records 1914-1918. 8 volumes. Dublin: Maunsel and Roberts, 1923. About Ireland, Casualties of World War I, 1914-1918 This data collection contains the book, Ireland’s Memorial Records - an 8 volume set compiled by The Committee of the Irish National War Memorial, originally published in 1923. These volumes provide information on over 49,000 Irish men and women who died in the Great War. The individuals included in this work were either of Irish birth, had residence in Ireland at the time of their death, or had served in an Irish regiment. Thus Denis Joseph O'Brien, Royal Navy, born county Cork, died 1914, ought to be in the Ancestry database. On searching I found that he was NOT there. Therefore he is almost certainly not on the Memorial in Dublin. What about this for a theory? In principle the Memorial in Dublin does contain the names of men from the Royal Navy and other services besides the Army. It is scandalous that this is not made clear in any description of it. In practice virtually all the men who met the criterion of ‘served in the army in an Irish regiment’ are indeed listed on the memorial. It was straightforward to collect this information in a comprehensive way without too much trouble. On the other hand the information on all the other men who ought to be there – ie soldiers from non-Irish regiments and combattants from other services, who were either born in or living in Ireland – is far from complete. This information was much more difficult to collect and insufficient effort was made to do so comprehensively. So here the practice falls far short of the principle. Thus I suppose that Denis Joseph O'Brien, Royal Navy, would have been there if his bereaved mother had written in to The Committee of the Irish National War Memorial to point out that he qualified for listing. But since she didn’t he is not. If that is so, then I would guess that there must be thousands more such cases. Sound plausible? Bart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom compton Posted 22 May , 2011 Share Posted 22 May , 2011 Hello. My granddad was born in dublin in 1870 and died in Arras in 1917 will he be on any memorial in Ireland?Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 22 May , 2011 Share Posted 22 May , 2011 It may be of general interest to know that the criteria for inclusion in the Rolls of The Scottish National War Memorial was as follows. As you suggest for the Irish case, the SNWM Committee appealed to NOK for casualty details to ensure it was as complete as possible. I suspect 1.000's are missing from it still. I have had a fair few added and know of several hundred Canadians who are absent from it. "A member of the Armed Forces of the Crown or of the Merchant Navy who was either a Scotsman (i.e. born in Scotland or who had a Scottish born father or Mother) or served in a Scottish Regiment and was killed or died (except as a result of suicide) as a result of a wound, injury or disease sustained (1) in a theatre of operations for which a medal has been or is awarded; or (2) whilst on duty in aid of the Civil Power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 22 May , 2011 Share Posted 22 May , 2011 Thus I suppose that Denis Joseph O'Brien, Royal Navy, would have been there if his bereaved mother had written in to The Committee of the Irish National War Memorial to point out that he qualified for listing. But since she didn't he is not. If that is so, then I would guess that there must be thousands more such cases. Hi Bart. I don't know how the information was collected about those to be included but I guess your take on it sounds plausible enough. Hello. My granddad was born in dublin in 1870 and died in Arras in 1917 will he be on any memorial in Ireland?Tom Hi Tom. Only one way to find out. Tell us what his name, DOD & unit were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 22 May , 2011 Share Posted 22 May , 2011 I suspect 1.000's are missing from it still. Hi Jim. I suspect there are many missing from Ireland's Memorial too. Here's an older thread on this subject. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=125566&st=0&p=1207149&hl=+ireland's%20+memorial&fromsearch=1&entry1207149 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart150 Posted 22 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2011 Hi Jim. I suspect there are many missing from Ireland's Memorial too. Here's an older thread on this subject. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=125566&st=0&p=1207149&hl=+ireland's%20+memorial&fromsearch=1&entry1207149 Thanks for the link. Very interesting thread. After reading it this is what I now suspect: In principle all Royal Navy men who died and were born in or lived in Ireland were meant to be included. In practice hardly any attempt was made to collect the details of these men. If a relative wrote in with the details then the man would be included, but this only occurred in a minority of cases. The result is that the majority of Royal Navy men who ought to be on the memorial are not. Only a tiny minority of all the names on the memorial are Royal Navy. Hence the false impression that there are none at all and the names are all Army. I'd be interested if anyone who has a deeper knowledge of the subject than me can confirm or contradict this theory. Bart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 22 May , 2011 Share Posted 22 May , 2011 It seems that nobody knows the answer to this question, or else nobody cares about it. I certainly care - you've brought up a very interesting anomaly. I have two medals which might provide circumstantial evidence, if not a definitive answer. One belonging to Andrew McKenna of Balbriggan who died in the HMS Bulwark explosion in 1914. He doesn't appear in Ireland's memorial records which are physically housed in the Islandbridge Memorial Gardens. He does appear in the Commonwealth War Graves site. I've just checked Ancestry and there's a database there titled "UK Royal Navy and Royal Marine War Graves Roll 1914 to 1919" and he's there. John Mayne of Royal Canal Bank (Dublin Fusiliers) appears in both Commonwealth War Graves and Ireland's Memorial Records. Ancestry states: "In the early 1920s, £5,000 of the National War Memorial funds were spent collecting the records of all those who had fallen in WWI and publishing them in Ireland's Memorial Records" Clearly Andrew McKenna should be both in the Memorial Records and be part of the Islandbridge commemoration and he is in neither... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom compton Posted 22 May , 2011 Share Posted 22 May , 2011 Hello Ulsterlad2.His name was Edgar Tristram born 26.5.1870 Dublin,died 13.4.1917 Arras ,he was in the 6th dorsets.Thanks Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 22 May , 2011 Share Posted 22 May , 2011 Tom - Good news. Edgar Blyton Tristram 6th Dorsets is recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom compton Posted 22 May , 2011 Share Posted 22 May , 2011 That is good news is it recorded in stone or in a book. Thanks Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 22 May , 2011 Share Posted 22 May , 2011 Tom - Ireland's Memorial Records are 8 Volumes which are physically housed in the Islandbridge Memorial Gardens. The names are not carved there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom compton Posted 22 May , 2011 Share Posted 22 May , 2011 Thanks for that information.This is all new to me.I had no idea.Must have a trip to Dublin some time.See if the pint of the dark stuff the queen left is still on the counter. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 22 May , 2011 Share Posted 22 May , 2011 Tom - I've tried to pm you but either your inbox is full or you have pm's turned off or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart150 Posted 23 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 May , 2011 Since the names on the Memorial are contained in books it would be much easier to update the lists than if they were carved in stone. It is just a question of producing a new edition of the books. It would have been a fine thing if at the time of the Queen’s visit the President of Ireland had said something like this: We now know that the record of names at this Memorial is seriously incomplete. Many of those who deserve to be honoured are not listed here. I am announcing today that the Irish Government will finance a project to produce new lists for the Memorial that will be, if not perfect, still much more complete than the present lists. Many of the names to be added will be the relatives of citizens of this country, but many people in the United Kingdom too had Irish relatives whose names will now be added. Therefore this project will be a token of the relations of kinship and friendship between our two countries. Still not too late, maybe? Bart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary H Price Posted 28 May , 2014 Share Posted 28 May , 2014 I am looking for more information about the sources used to compile Ireland's Memorial Records 1914-1918. What source was used to report the place of birth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 28 May , 2014 Share Posted 28 May , 2014 ... the criteria for inclusion in the Rolls of The Scottish National War Memorial ... (except as a result of suicide) ... Water under the bridge, but what a shame - men tormented beyond their ability to endure. "SAD" Mk 2 ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now