French soldier - oil painting - help required please

[aengland]

Good people

Last year I purchased from a French antique dealer a large painting (1.3m x 0.8m) of a French soldier...... there should be some pictures attached. It is not a fantastic piece of art but my wife and I liked it and it now hangs in the study

Could anyone who is an expert on French uniforms help me with identifying the uniform (even help from non-experts would be very welcome!), and telling me anything about the soldier that is possible to establish. The antique dealer faithfully promised to contact the original owners and ask about the subject.... he felt sure that they would know his name, unit etc. Despite a polite reminder nothing has been heard from across the channel..... maybe he is still 'finding out'.

Would I be right in thinking he was from an artillery unit?

Any help would be gratefully received

Thank you

Andrew

[FROGSMILE]

Good people

Last year I purchased from a French antique dealer a large painting (1.3m x 0.8m) of a French soldier...... there should be some pictures attached. It is not a fantastic piece of art but my wife and I liked it and it now hangs in the study

Could anyone who is an expert on French uniforms help me with identifying the uniform (even help from non-experts would be very welcome!), and telling me anything about the soldier that is possible to establish. The antique dealer faithfully promised to contact the original owners and ask about the subject.... he felt sure that they would know his name, unit etc. Despite a polite reminder nothing has been heard from across the channel..... maybe he is still 'finding out'.

Would I be right in thinking he was from an artillery unit?

Any help would be gratefully received

Thank you

Andrew

My thoughts are that he is a Sergent Chef (chief sergeant) of the 1st French Regiment of Artillery. He has an Artillery pattern M1915 Adrian Helmet with crossed gun barrels behind the distinctive grenade of the French Army of the Republic. He has the numeral 1 on his collar to indicate his Regiment and adjacent to them chevrons indicating his rank. On his left sleeve are service chevrons indicating his years of war service. The Sam Browne shows his status as a senior non-commisioned officer.

From its introduction the M15 Adrian the helmet was issued with a metal insignia that denoted the arm of service.Originally there were a total of nine emblems for the Adrian helmet but thisnumber would rise to 12 by the end of the war. These were stamped-plates andconsisted of a number of devices including a flaming bomb for infantry, crossed cannons for artillery, a First Empire styled helmet and breastplate forengineers, a crescent moon for Zoave regiments and anchor for navy. All of these featured the letters "RF" for the French Second Republic, but it is interesting to note that the original designs lacked these letters, which appear to have been a last minute addition.

[CROONAERT]

My thoughts are that he is a Sergent Chef (chief sergeant) of the 1st French Regiment of Artillery. He has an Artillery pattern M1915 Adrian Helmet with crossed gun barrels behind the distinctive grenade of the French Army of the Republic. He has the numeral 1 on his collar to indicate his Regiment and adjacent to them chevrons indicating his rank. On his left sleeve are service chevrons indicating his years of war service. The Sam Browne shows his status as a senior non-commisioned officer.

He's a lieutenant (2 horizontal bars on the cuff) of the 1er Regiment d' Artillerie de Campagne (indicated by the '1' on the red backgrounded collar with the two blue/grey 'darts' (or soutaches)). Its also difficult to work out the service chevrons (upper left arm), but the first one indicates one full year on active service with another issued for every six months following (ie. if there was 3, this would indicate 2 completed years... in this case, though, there appears to be 6, thereby indicating 3 and a half years). The colour of these chevrons also indicate officer status (as does the gilt '1' on the collar).

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

He's a lieutenant (2 horizontal bars on the cuff) of the 1er Regiment d' Artillerie de Campagne (indicated by the '1' on the red backgrounded collar with the two blue/grey 'darts' (or soutaches)). Its also difficult to work out the service chevrons (upper left arm), but the first one indicates one full year on active service with another issued for every six months following (ie. if there was 3, this would indicate 2 completed years). The colour of these chevrons also indicate officer status (as does the gilt '1' on the collar).

Dave

Brilliant stuff Dave, I did wonder if he was a junior officer because of the Sam Browne and I was looking for bars on his sleeve, but not realising how small they were completely missed them until you pointed them out. It all fits now!

[Piorun]

What terrific responses! It would indeed be interesting to know who the subject is. Antony

[CROONAERT]

A little more... he appears to be wearing the ribbons of two medals. Though heavily blurred in the painting the first appears to be the ribbon of the Croix de Guerre so the second will be a lesser award...maybe the ribbon of the Insigne du Blessé Militaire judging by the colours? (then again, it could be the medaille militaire ribbon and the artist has mistakenly reversed the order of wear)

He also appears to be sporting his officially issued Mle.1881 (or 1883 for the pedants amongst us!) plaque d'identité in a semi-official, privately purchased bracelet on his left wrist.

All evidence considered, the portrait depicts this officer as he was at some point between March 1918 and June 1920. He would have been on active service from March 1915 at the very latest and appears to have been quite severely wounded at least once during his service.

dave

[KevinBattle]

Is there some kind of battle scene going on in the background, seems to be some faint shapes in the right hand side (as we're looking at it)???

Now Dave has spotted his identity disc, just needs someone to put it under the microscope to find his identity!!!

[FROGSMILE]

A little more... he appears to be wearing the ribbons of two medals. Though heavily blurred in the painting the first appears to be the ribbon of the Croix de Guerre so the second will be a lesser award...maybe the ribbon of the Insigne du Blessé Militaire judging by the colours? (then again, it could be the medaille militaire ribbon and the artist has mistakenly reversed the order of wear)

He also appears to be sporting his officially issued Mle.1881 (or 1883 for the pedants amongst us!) plaque d'identité in a semi-official, privately purchased bracelet on his left wrist.

All evidence considered, the portrait depicts this officer as he was at some point between March 1918 and June 1920. He would have been on active service from March 1915 at the very latest and appears to have been quite severely wounded at least once during his service.

dave

Really fascinating stuff Dave, thank you for posting.

[SteveMarsdin]

Good evening All

,As well as the SGA Memoire des hommes site which has the JMO for the regiment there's a regimental history on the francophone Pages14-18 site:

http://www.pages14-18.com/B_PAGES_HISTOIRE/historiques__14-18_Fr.htm

It may give you some "maybes" and although we won't be able to identify your man (I think !) at least it gives you more background.

[Michael Johnson]

I would say the second ribbon is the Medaille Militaire, which might indicate promotion from senior N.C.O. The second possibility, given the Croix de Guerre, is that this is a posthumous portrait, and he is wearing the two medals awarded automatically to those killed (and I believe those severely wounded).

Possibilities include:

AUBRY François Marie Lieutenant

BAUMANN Pierre Henri (perhaps more likely as he is a Sous-Lieutenant) 1918

BERTRAND Georges Sous-Lieutenant

BILLIOUD Benoit Théodore Sous-Lieutenant (possibly too early - May 1915)

[CROONAERT]

I would say the second ribbon is the Medaille Militaire, which might indicate promotion from senior N.C.O. The second possibility, given the Croix de Guerre, is that this is a posthumous portrait, and he is wearing the two medals awarded automatically to those killed (and I believe those severely wounded).

Possibilities include:

AUBRY François Marie Lieutenant

BAUMANN Pierre Henri (perhaps more likely as he is a Sous-Lieutenant) 1918

BERTRAND Georges Sous-Lieutenant

BILLIOUD Benoit Théodore Sous-Lieutenant (possibly too early - May 1915)

Cancel out Aubry, Bertrand and Billioud as they're all too early (Dec 1914 (Christmas Day!!!), Oct 1914 and May 1915 deaths respectively). Baumann can also be scrubbed as a candidate as he didn't begin his service until January 1916 and was only 21 at death ( 'our' man was on active service since (at the latest) March 1915, looks older than 21... and is a Lt, not a S/Lt anyway)*. If the second ribbon is a Medaille Militaire (and it is a big 'if') then, as previously mentioned, the artist has depicted the ribbons the wrong way round (not an uncommon error I'd think).

Dave

*(PS... can't immediately find a reason why this guy can't be him though... FOY Pierre Marie Eugène ... everything fits (even has the correct amount of service chevrons for him for the time of his death - just fell short of qualifying for another)

[CROONAERT]

.... the portrait depicts this officer as he was at some point between March 1918 and June 1920. ...

More little workings out!... change the above dates to being between March 1918 and October 1919 (using the evidence available, - and assuming that he isn't Lt.Foy or someone with a similar service and that he survived the last 8 months of the war - he'd have been demobilised by the 4th October 1919).

Dave

[Michael Johnson]

Cancel out Aubry, Bertrand and Billioud as they're all too early (Dec 1914 (Christmas Day!!!), Oct 1914 and May 1915 deaths respectively). Baumann can also be scrubbed as a candidate as he didn't begin his service until January 1916 and was only 21 at death ( 'our' man was on active service since (at the latest) March 1915, looks older than 21... and is a Lt, not a S/Lt anyway)*. If the second ribbon is a Medaille Militaire (and it is a big 'if') then, as previously mentioned, the artist has depicted the ribbons the wrong way round (not an uncommon error I'd think).

Dave

*(PS... can't immediately find a reason why this guy can't be him though... FOY Pierre Marie Eugène ... everything fits (even has the correct amount of service chevrons for him for the time of his death - just fell short of qualifying for another)

See here: http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/lib_memh/php/fiche_popup.php?_Base=MPF1418&_Lg=fr&_Fiche=8izWVQhSKALqdhQFcGTuEQ==&_C=3497667654

[CROONAERT]

See here: http://www.memoirede...=&_C=3497667654

see what I mean? Foy entered service on 1st October 1912 and was, therefore, part of the active Army on 3rd August 1914. He'd have only just qualified for his 7th service chevron at the time of his death...probably not even have had time to have been issued with it (though, to be honest, I think he'd missed qualification by a matter of days). If the painting was made from , for example, a recent photograph, then he'd have only been wearing 6... as shown. He looks about the correct age too.

probably not him though!

dave

[aengland]

Wow!

Thanks very much indeed Croonaert, Michael, Steve, Frogsmile, Kevin W4, and Piorun

I have been away for a couple of days and have come back to this most interesting, indeed fascinating, set of postings...... I haven't read them all in detail yet but wanted to say a big thank you for all your efforts and comments. I shall (once all the children are a-bed, and the work has been done!) read, inwardly digest and admire.

Greatly appreciate all your help

Andrew

[ph0ebus]

Can I ask a dumb question? Have you looked on the back of the painting to see if anything is written on it?

Daniel

[Piorun]

That's dumb????!!! Good one, Daniel. Antony

[aengland]

There is no such thing as a dumb question!

Sadly, there is nothing written on the back, on the front, or on the sides..... and no artists signature that I can see either. A pity

Andrew

[ph0ebus]

Ah, well, worth a try. I have seen paintings with details written on the stretcher, so you never know.

Daniel

[SteveMarsdin]

One other lieutenants who was killed in 1917 and was a bit older is:

KAMMERER Oscar 02-12-1880 (killed April 1917)

Edit: On double-checking on the memorial genweb site it's 1915 not 1917, so that rules him out !

[CROONAERT]

One other lieutenants who was killed in 1917 and was a bit older is:

KAMMERER Oscar 02-12-1880 (killed April 1917)

Edit: On double-checking on the memorial genweb site it's 1915 not 1917, so that rules him out !

If he died (and, again, it's a BIG 'if'), the service chevrons indicate that he would have had to have died at some point after the beginning of March 1918 at the earliest.

Dave

[CROONAERT]

Here's one version of the 1 RAC casualty listing for 1914-18 which is, perhaps, slightly easier to search than some of the online versions. There are just 6 Lieutenants on the list (though how complete it is, I don't know) ... the only one of which who fits the bill being Foy. (Death/enlistment dates are wrong for all the others on the list). Bear in mind though, that the guy in the picture might have survived the war.

Dave

***edit*** unfortunately , it doesn't appear that I can attach the file (MS Excel file) !!!!

[SteveMarsdin]

Good morning,

In the regimental history there are 6 lieutenants listed as killed:

AUBRY Francois-Marie

FOY Pierre-Marie

GERMAIN Jean-Léon

GRIVEAU Marie-Anatole

JOUGLA Jean-Amédée

KAMMERER Oscar

Of those lieutenants who started the war in 1e RAC (not surprisingly) none are on the regimental list as lieutenants on November 11, 1918 but 3 remained with the regiment in a promoted rank (some of the others could have left the regiment in 1918 though ?):

BASCOU (capt)

GUYOT (capt)

BELINGARD (ch d'esc)

The lieutenants on the list at November 11, 1918 were:

RENARD

DE THOISY

BAZIN

LEBOEUF

LESCURE

NICOLAS

HENRIOT

SEVRIN

As Dave points out * "our man" would have had to have 6 chevron's worth of service (3.5 years) at the time the picture depicts.

* and I forgot !!! - see earlier post

[CROONAERT]

Not bad really considering the scant evidence ... narrowed down to (possibly) one of 12 likely candidates (and just one if he died!). I fear though, that failing the discovery of any named appearance on any unit photograph (and I've only got 3 of this unit with only a single officer depicted) we may have reached the end of the road (though should the records of these 12 be obtained, then this figure could be still lessened). We may be in the hands of the French antique dealer for further information now !

Andrew - where was the location of this dealer? (long shot, but there's always the possibility that the painting never left the subject's 'home area')

Dave

[Michael Johnson]

Although a Régiment d'artillerie de campagne (RAC) is the likeliest, there are other artillery units numbered 1:

1er régiment d'artillerie lourde

1er régiment d'artillerie à pied

1er régiment d'artillerie de montagne

1er régiment d'artillerie coloniale

as well as African Artillery.

I'm not sufficiently current with French Artillery uniforms to say what the insignia distictions would be.