Any good reads for beginning researchers?

[17107BM]

At least you have found the best web site to ask your question:)

Advice from me, is don't start.. it's addictive. Next thing you know you will want to do a Battle field tour!

Books. You start with what you think is enough, then you take what is not WWI related to the charity shop to make room for what's really needed, more WWI BOOKS.

you have been warned

[WilliamRev]

When it comes to researching the experience of the war, I very much favour material written by those who were there. There are many accounts that have been published, but some of the classics are still classic.

Her Privates We by Frederic Manning.

Undertones of War, Edmund Blunden.

A Private in The Guards, Stephen Graham,

Tell England, Ernest Raymond

Up to Mametz, Wyn Griffith

Amongst these titles I would also recommend 'I Was There, Undying memories of 1914-1918' as edited by Sir John Hammerton.

Asolutely - and the sooner they were written after the war the better, in my opinion (before the memories started to fade and the memoirs drift into the "mud, barbed-wire, all the generals were idiots, thousands of lads with shell-shock were shot at dawn" sort of half-truths).

"The War the Infantry Knew" by Captain J.C.Dunn is simply unbeatable IMHO - the best first-hand account of the Great War that I have come across. Everyone should get a copy and read it several times

William

[penguy83]

At least you have found the best web site to ask your question:)

Advice from me, is don't start.. it's addictive. Next thing you know you will want to do a Battle field tour!

Books. You start with what you think is enough, then you take what is not WWI related to the charity shop to make room for what's really needed, more WWI BOOKS.

you have been warned

It's too late for that, I already want to go on a tour. Most of my books that aren't related to WWI or WWII already went to the library for donation, except for a select few.

Im in too deep now...

[rumplestiltskin]

There is no known remedy apart from penury

It's too late for that, I already want to go on a tour. Most of my books that aren't related to WWI or WWII already went to the library for donation, except for a select few.

Im in too deep now...

[jjkrause84]

The librarian actually reccomended the three Lyn McDonald books that they had on the shelf. He talked as if he too was fascinated about the subject and had done some research. He stated that they were very good reads.

Lyn MacDonald isn't bad for a very light, populist read....but don't take any of her statements seriously. She is not a scholarly historian.

Gary Sheffield's "Forgotten Victory" is probably the best place to start for a good overview. Hew Strachan's work is, obviously very good as well. No idea when Vol. 2 will come out. He doesn't seem to be in much of a rush. In any case I would HARDLY pity him. He has perhaps the most enviable job in the field and even has a PA....the only historian I know with a PA (Rosemary...a very nice, efficient lady).

[section edited out]

[truthergw]

Gordon Corrigan should be acknowledged as one of the few who stood against the flood of Bloodthirsty Bunglers school of non history, when it was at its peak. I doubt if personal acquaintance weighs much in the scale of literary or historical ability. I like his style. Macdonald is only a good read if verified facts come low in one's priorities. The Official Histories will give a year or more of reading and a basic grounding which will stand one in good stead in any analysis or debate. It is surprising just how little correction or addition they require. Not cheap but many books are based on them so one economises in shelf space and financially in the end. Mine The Long Long Trail for its goodies and learn to use Forum search. Worth at least half a dozen books.

[WilliamRev]

Gordon Corrigan should be acknowledged as one of the few who stood against the flood of Bloodthirsty Bunglers school of non history, when it was at its peak. I doubt if personal acquaintance weighs much in the scale of literary or historical ability. I like his style.....

I do recommend Corrigan's "Mud, Blood and Poppycock" and the refreshing attempts to debunk Great War myths - one may end up disagreeing with some of his arguments, but it is a book that I keep returning to.

William

[Chris_Baker]

But you'd be better off reading the work of John Terraine, which pre-dates Gordon Corrigan by three decades. Now that really was against the tide.

[jjkrause84]

Gordon Corrigan should be acknowledged as one of the few who stood against the flood of Bloodthirsty Bunglers school of non history, when it was at its peak. I doubt if personal acquaintance weighs much in the scale of literary or historical ability. I like his style

edited out

[jjkrause84]

But you'd be better off reading the work of John Terraine, which pre-dates Gordon Corrigan by three decades. Now that really was against the tide.

Terraine and Barnett were both revolutionary for their work and views in the 60s. It's a bit shocking, in hindsight, that they were chosen to write the Great War (1964) documantery series.

Terraine is good, but he goes a bit overboard. He was fighting such violent anti-Haig sentiment that he over-absolves Haig very often in 'An Educated Soldier', in my opinion. The work has held up great for being as old as it is, but it is aging.

[CarylW]

...snipped.........Macdonald is only a good read if verified facts come low in one's priorities. .......snipped......

Following this thread with great interest.

Always a healthy debate when Lyn McDonald is mentioned on here. I feel her books have a place and I have no qualms about suggesting them to someone who is an absolute beginner because they are easily readable and in many cases lead on to the reader wanting to know more and seeking out facts for themselves. It must be easy to underestimate(or overestimate) the intelligence, level of interest and resourcefulness of the person concerned and just how far they want to go down the line of serious research, or what level they want to begin with.

There are beginners and there are beginners. (Out of interest, which books are pupils and students of the war advised to read? I would be very interested to see the reading list of both) Starting off reading long and dry histories may discourage someone with a passing interest (who may one day go on to study the subject in depth) If someone had handed me, for example, Hew Strachan's book and said "here start with this" I might have been put off but can now appreciate the worth of the book (and others like it) and often refer to it Others might prefer to start off that way

I detest anything with historical errors that I am aware of but I wasn't aware there were any at the time of first reading McDonald books and for me those and others sparked an interest that made me want to learn more and I remember from past threads how members who have gone on to achieve greater things did in fact start by reading the books of Lyn McDonald, or at least did read them in the very beginning along with other books (have a feeling Chris Baker was one of them but I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong)

A family member of mine who is beginning to show an interest in the Great War read McDonald books of mine and now borrows other books from me. They have had the benefit of further education, have an open mind and are canny enough not to believe all that is written, so I've left them to make up their own mind

(now you can all jump on my head)

As far as first person narratives are concerned - very Interesting thread here with contribution and discussion from both Peter Hart and Jack Sheldon

"Great War first person narratives good and bad examples"

http://1914-1918.inv...1

Caryl

[truthergw]

Hi Caryl. I would not suggest that Lynn MacDonald falsified her accounts. Not at all. She does however present anecdotes as though they were the plain unvarnished facts. It is my belief that these type of books should be read by Great War buffs who are aware of the caveats or that they should at least carry a large ' health warning'. To recommend them to ' beginners' seems counter productive to a generally accurate picture of the war. It is possible to build almost any picture of the fighting and the war if one is allowed to choose the anecdotes. Before a book is put to one side because of its date of publication or last major edition, I believe one should show where it is wrong, that is, present the newer or more accurate evidence at least by reference. I repeat here my belief that the best series of books for a true picture of the war is still the Official History, Some of these were put together not long after the war itself. Most of the Bloodthirsty Bungler genre studiously ignored them. In reading any book, one must allow for the author's prejudice. Regardless of when it was written. Chris is correct that Terraine was well to the fore in his portrayal of the Great War. I was simply pointing out that Corrigan was worth a mention in something of the same vein. For what little it is worth, I do not believe that the Great War has books for experts and books for beginners. I think people who are interested should go straight to the best source they can find. There are books which are specialist inasmuch as they require prior knowledge for full enjoyment. Here, the newcomer can test his mettle and get a pointer or two to the gaps in his knowledge and the sort of avenues which are open for further reading.

[CarylW]

Tom

Thanks for your reply (think that was the longest one of yours I have ever read!)

I do appreciate your opinion and really have a lot of respect for the knowledge that you have but I still stand by my post and opinion that it does depend on the person, their level of intelligence, education and to what depth they want to study or just initially read books about the Great War that might spark an interest and lead them to read and research in more depth (what I actually wrote was "It must be easy to underestimate (or overestimate) the intelligence, level of interest and resourcefulness of the person concerned and just how far they want to go down the line of serious research, or what level they want to begin with".)

You are on a much higher intellectual plane than a lot of people (i.e. me) and would advise accordingly depending on the books you have read and the level of learning you have reached but I see where you are coming from. I really do. You might have enjoyed reading officlal histories right from the beginning and mighty big serious tomes but it could put others right off, faced with such books, I personally couldn't have started that way, I'd have been bored stiff

I haven't read any of Lyn McDonald for a while but I will sooner or later re-read and from memory, she published the first hand narratives without expressing her opinions that they should be accepted as actual fact and written in stone didn't she?

By suggesting the books should come with a health warning might be seriously underestimating the intelligence of the reader

I read them in the very beginning and I'm still on the path of righteousness (mostly) I have Corrigan and Terraine (and Keegan) on my bookshelf

Just my opinion though

Maybe we should agree to differ?

I agree with what you said about the Long Long Trail and this forum (but didn't want to make my post above too long). It's amazing what can be absorbed from the forum just by reading threads and of course referring to the LLT

Caryl

[truthergw]

Caryl, every opinion has the same value in a debate. I try not to take myself too seriously. I have friends who help there. I spent most of my working life on building sites and working as a machinist. I ended up in a big DIY shop. I have always been nosy and wanted to know what was going on. Now, I know I could buy books aimed at the newcomer. But I wanted to know as much as the guy who was writing those books. I read several Macdonald books when I started and here I have an advantage. When I was a teenager, Old Comrades Clubs and Old Contemps still flourished. I was a van boy when I left school and spent the next two years sharing a cab with a Great War member of the Royal Artillery. Every Wednesday, we had our sandwiches in An Old Comrades Club where men went to pass the time with mates. I was skinned alive by these guys. One thing I did learn was they were, almost to a man, blatant and unashamed romancers. They loved to spin a yarn. A goggle eyed laddie of 15 was just up their alley. When I started to read about the war and started to piece what happened together to my own satisfaction. I was fairly sure that every time the men in L. M.s books told their story it would be slightly different. Some things remembered, some forgotten to be recalled next time. Exploits borrowed and some denied. I also knew that soldiers see very little of a battle. That's why we have officers and commanders. I wanted to know what really happened. Why was Wullie trapped in a shell hole for half a day while his leg turned gangrous. He had no idea. He simply did his duty and that was all that was asked of him. The OH's are not the only way to find out what the plan was but they are very reliable. They give a very good platform on which to build a coherent view of an Insane and incoherent thing like a world war. The OHs are never dull to me. When I read of casualties I picture a club house with more than its share of wheelchairs and recall being proud as punch at being asked to help cut the food on the plate of one of the men who lacked an arm. I remember hair raising stories greeted invariably by roars of laughter and shouts of, " Gerrout! You lying ( cont. P94), that wisnae you, that wis Geordie Whutisname in A company", You are however, quite correct to say that we all need to choose our own books and read them in our own way. Blimey, another Dickens novel.

[CarylW]

Tom

Thanks for the novelette! Here's another one of mine.

For what it's worth, I think we're both right. McDonald books aren't the be all and end all, but I feel they have a value and a place and it's up to the reader if and how they move on. Let the reader decide, I say

As far as first person narratives and witness accounts are concerned, I understand exactly what you mean - they can and do vary. Not everyone will witness the same event in the same way. (as any police officer may tell us) The memory can play tricks and fade with age and as you say there are romancers who will embroider a story and perhaps put themselves in a more heroic light - they may not have been aware of strategy and a whole lot of other things but oral history is important and do we dismiss oral accounts out of hand. These people were there, we weren't and sometimes the truth can be stranger than fiction. A common saying amongst nursing colleagues (and I said it myself many times) "we could write a book, but no-one would believe us".

One one website, (newspaper transcriptions) I've put a disclaimer on the bottom and it's been there a while, along the lines of "...I make no claims to the accuracy of anything that is transcribed on these pages

As today, newspaper articles are not always accurate, eyewitness accounts can vary. Facts written in a newspaper article should not be used as documentary evidence in genealogical or historical research

Please consult the original records at all times for further information and research

So perhaps substitute newspapers for 'narratives'. I wonder though with many of the veterans interviewed still alive at the time the books were published, wouldn't it have been a bit disrespectful to have included something similar, or a 'health warning'.

Found the thread that reveals that Chris Baker started off reading McDonald books (quote "Somme" and "They called it Passchendaele" were two of the first books I read about the war, and they played a very large part in getting me hooked. Ignore the odd factual error, and absorb the humanity and atmosphere she creates. They are easy to read, pacy and absorbing........). Quite.

Some very interesting opinions here in this thread of McDonald books, for and against

http://1914-1918.inv...showtopic=30507

(Off topic I know, but an example of how first person narratives of those who were 'there' can vary. The other night on BBC "Hidden Paintings of the North-West" with a subject matter of WW2 artists; two elderly ladies were brought in to view a painting by a respected WW2 artist. The painting depicted a scene in a factory producing aeroplane parts; in the painting one female was shown, the other workers were men. Both of the elderly ladies had worked in the factory during wartime. One said something along the lines of "oh this is just how I remember the factory", the other stated "this isn't how I remember it at all, for one thing there weren't so many men, they were all away fighting")

Now I'll butt out and let someone else get a word in edgeways, think I'm repeating myself

Caryl

[truthergw]

I agree. We are saying much the same thing with our own emphasis.

[Chris_Baker]

Terraine is good, but he goes a bit overboard. He was fighting such violent anti-Haig sentiment that he over-absolves Haig very often in 'An Educated Soldier', in my opinion. The work has held up great for being as old as it is, but it is aging.

One should bear in mind that John was writing before the release of the war diaries to public scrutiny, and many years before academic attention began to be paid to the subject.

Re Lyn McDonald, I can't remember when I made the quote Caryl has highlighted above, but it must be a good while ago, and I stand by every word. I'd still rather read her material than 3/4 of the great outpouring of Great War writing there has been since she published "Somme" and "They called it Passcehndaele". The difference with most is that she can write.

[GRANVILLE]

Asolutely - and the sooner they were written after the war the better, in my opinion (before the memories started to fade and the memoirs drift into the "mud, barbed-wire, all the generals were idiots, thousands of lads with shell-shock were shot at dawn" sort of half-truths).

"The War the Infantry Knew" by Captain J.C.Dunn is simply unbeatable IMHO - the best first-hand account of the Great War that I have come across. Everyone should get a copy and read it several times

William

I'd like to thank William for making mention of Cpt JC Dunn's work: The War The Infantry Knew 1914-1919. I have to confess this was a new one to me, so I got curious and tracked down a copy. What a truely superb account, full of detail and interest-and I'm only just getting into it! Many thanks William.

Dave

[yelob]

I am going to make a bold suggestion and suggest to get the Great War DVD BBC and immerse yourself in that,I think it's great for an overeview

and then of course dig where you want and as deep as you want.For me trying to get a handle on the whole Nazi phenomenon I am particularly interested in how it started and finished so that when I eventually dig into the superb Evans 3rd Reich trilogy I will have a good basis of seminal events that went before.The problem of course is I am now bogged down in WW1 and wish to remain bogged as I can't stop thinking about this conflict.

One book I found useful but don't see mentioned often here is Martin Gilbert's First World War.

[Guest Oberon]

I'm a 'newbie' of sorts re WW I myself, more interested in the political aspects of the era than other topics, so I started with Stevenson's Cataclysm and followed that up with Massie's Dreadnought for the lead up to the war, and have been very happy with both, though Massie's book is a bit too gossipy for my tastes. Both did pique my interests in WW I, and as WW II is merely WW I, Part Two, it was the most important war of the 20th century, more so than WW II in my amateurish personal opinion, so for beginners like myself I would recommend the Massie and Stevenson books for the wider contexts and strategic level aspects for beginners.

[Marilyne]

from a "bear" to a "penguin" (????)

I can send you my bibliography.

It's classified in themes, includes novels and movies, internet sites and articles.

It's 85% English... and a bit of french and german.

And above all, books I've read and annotated have a few lines on content and review.

Send me a PM with your e-mail if you're interested.

Marilyne