steve fuller Posted 14 July , 2004 Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Hello campers having haggled with tooth, nail, promises and bribes for 8 months, Ive finally got a pic of my Gt Gramps and would like to know if anyone can provide info on unit etc from it please? The smallest baby was born Dec 1913, so would assume this to be from Autumn 1914. The gloves he's wearing also suggest later in the year. Would the experts say that this is a TF man, or someone who's just enlisted (he enlisted Aug 1914, but havent confirmed whether he was in the TF so far)? Did they issue uniforms that quickly? I would expect him to be Bedfordshire TF or 1/5th Beds battalion. Has always been assumed down the years that the tin hat worn by the bigger young lady is the soldiers'; does that look accurate? John Wainwright; youre welcome to the pic if youd still like it for your database. Its taken utside the church in Heath and Reach, Leighton Buzzard for your info. Many thanks for any help Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 14 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2004 OK then. Didnt go on 1st time. Give me a while and Ill work out how to redue the pic to a size that works.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 14 July , 2004 Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Steve - if you are dating this to Autumn 1914 would that not rule out the 'tin hat' - could it be a 'pith' helmet similar in style to the one worn now by the Royal Marines in full dress? I don't think tin hats were issued until mid-1915? Sorry if I'm off beam on this one .. trying anyway! Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 14 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Steve - if you are dating this to Autumn 1914 would that not rule out the 'tin hat' - could it be a 'pith' helmet similar in style to the one worn now by the Royal Marines in full dress? I don't think tin hats were issued until mid-1915? Hello Des Truth is I dont know! Family assumed it was his, as they assumed it was a 1917 pic until I questioned the babies age. Fire away mate, all the bits will help!! Closer pics of the hat and cap badge (hopefully, if Ive got it right) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr ELG Posted 14 July , 2004 Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Hello Steve! Lovely photo! Isn't it just a girl's hat with a wide brim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 14 July , 2004 Share Posted 14 July , 2004 The hat being worn by the young lady does not look like any sort of pithe helmet I have ever seen as the brim looks to be upturned. To me it fits remarkably well and looks like a straw hat with a flower in the front. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 14 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Ill get the hang of this techo stuff one day ... perhaps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 14 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Hello Steve! Lovely photo! Isn't it just a girl's hat with a wide brim? Hey Dawn and Max. Ive argued this hat thing and theyre adamant, but they were also adamant about the date, so ...!! Families! I go with you, and stuff the politics!!! No brim on a Tin hat, and them not being around until 1915 is enough for me guys. Funny really cos thats my Nan (Gran; bought me up) and she was teased (to the point of being very tetchy about it) for years and years about the hat. If she'd have only known ... Thank you so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 14 July , 2004 Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Steve The badge above your man's right breast pocket is the Imperial Service Badge. It was awarded to each individual accepting liability for service outside the United Kingdom. The badge was worn, when in uniform, so long as the liability continued. From that I'm guessing that he was a territorial. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingsman64 Posted 14 July , 2004 Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Hi Guys looking at the chap and estimating his age I would also consider he could be a member of a home service battalion or garrison battalion. You often see them wearing the imperial serice badge, which was also worn in civillian clothing as in "please do not give me a white feather I have volunteered but have been ordered to stay/serve at home". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 14 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Hi Kingsman & Steve This Imperial Servie badge is new to me. Sorry! What is it? Has been looking like he was in the TF's for a while now, just need to confirm it with dates now (is that all?!!!). He was 29/30 at the time it was taken. Please keep itcoming!! Thanks guys Stev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 14 July , 2004 Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Steve, Just a thought. Check your Great Grandfathers MIC online, this should give you his unit etc. Glynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 14 July , 2004 Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Steve, Take a look at http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Bedfordshire...llofHonour.html I have just found it. There is a picture of a Pte George Farnham, with what looks like the same badge on his cap (i think). Hope this helps. Glynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 14 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2004 I have just found it. There is a picture of a Pte George Farnham, with what looks like the same badge on his cap (i think). Hope this helps. Glynn. Hi Glynn Thats the one mate. Thank you. Ties in nicely so far (and thats a welcome change!). Was definitely in 1/5th from Aug 1914, the Imperial badge points at the TF, which was looking probable anyway, and the childrens ages tie in too. Blimey, progress! Thank you very much everyone Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin Posted 14 July , 2004 Share Posted 14 July , 2004 Youre welcome, Any time Steve. Glynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 29 July , 2004 Share Posted 29 July , 2004 Steve...the Imperial Service badge was given to all members of the Territorial Force who had volunteered to serve overseas in an emergency. It was worn on the right side of the breast, slightly above and centered on the pocket. It was worn with uniform and on civilian dress. They were made of white metal or nickel (samething) DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 30 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 30 July , 2004 Steve...the Imperial Service badge was given to all members of the Territorial Force who had volunteered to serve overseas in an energency. It was worn on the right side of the breast, slightly above and centered on the pocket. It was worn with uniform and on civilian dress. They were made of white metal or nickel (samething) DrB Thanks for the info Dr B. It all helps doesnt it!!! A good piece of defensive armour against white feathers then? Once again, thank you Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 30 July , 2004 Share Posted 30 July , 2004 Steve- The badge figured most prominently in the pre-war time although it was certainly insurance against the white feather when worn in civilian dress from 14-18. Apparently, the government was somewhat cavalier towards the 'terriers at the beginning of the war. A unit which had 80% of its members wearing the Imperial Service badge were sent to FF first, then the percentage was lowered to 60%. The hapless Saturday night soldiers certainly paid in full for their enthusiasm. Edwards/Langley: British Army Proficency Badges, published 1984 says "Awarded to members of the Territorial Force who volunteered from 1912 to be drafted overseas from their units should their services be required. It was ordered to be worn on the right breast, a most unusual location shared only by medals of the Humane Societies and shooting medals." DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 30 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 30 July , 2004 Cheers Dr B. They certainly did pay didnt they?! Have read the 'Charge of the Teritorials' and similar stories / reports, and they seemed to hold together pretty well from what I can see? Scuse me asking, but do you have a specific interest in the TF? Im finding info on the TF a little difficult to nail, and would be grateful for any pointers or titbits you may be able to offer Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 30 July , 2004 Share Posted 30 July , 2004 The "Dragoon Helmet" resurfaces once more!!!]Its a 1910~20s Ladies/Childs Straw wide upswept brimmed "Cloche"style Hat with an embroidered Posy {or possibly "Dads" cap Badge @ the front}Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 30 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 30 July , 2004 The "Dragoon Helmet" resurfaces once more!!! Yep it sure does Roger! Im thinking about becoming religious and praying its for the last time. Hoping if someone more clued up than me says it, he'll be happy and 'submit' so I can get on with the important bits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 30 July , 2004 Share Posted 30 July , 2004 Steve-My knowledge of the 'terriers is somewhat abysmal, but I do have a few books that I can refer to. (Some old and some new) If you have a question, I will be happy to try and find an answer for you. regards, DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 31 July , 2004 Share Posted 31 July , 2004 Steve There is an active Territorial Force Study Group through this website - click the link below: http://www.tf.1914-1918.net/ I'm quite sure there are experts there who may not have picked up on this thread but who can furnish you with the answers you seek. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 31 July , 2004 Share Posted 31 July , 2004 I just thought I would throw in my ha'penn'th, is it possible that the badge on the childs hat is the Staffordshire knot? Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 2 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 2 August , 2004 Dr B; Many thanks for the offer. Im still in the steep learning curve too! At the mo, Im trying to pin dates etc so I can build a pic of his TF and Army life, but as I dont have dates, I dont quite know what to ask for yet! I know he was 5th Beds TF, prob F Co pre war (Luton HQ), 1/5th in Balkans, wounded or illness there, back to UK then off to France. So anything on the TF service in general pre 1914 or specifically the 5th Beds (162 Brigade) TF battalion pre war or in action may be helpful? And only if convenient of course Paul; I have a weekly look at the site for any updates but Im in the middle of nowhere, so cant easily get to their meets, or any 'archive holding areas' (yet). The Regimental Museum and archives sound promising from what I see / hear. Just waiting for the chance to get there! Museumtom; no idea im afraid. Shame, but cannot 'clean' the image up anymore than i have, so cant bring more detail out im afraid. Thank you everyone Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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