David Filsell Posted 27 August , 2011 Share Posted 27 August , 2011 Jerry, Thanks for your response the head clinician tells me I am recovering now! I would argue near route too. Under the circumstances it was hugely successful. Certainly a great deal of 'fog of war' confusion a number of important - inevitable - rearguards But an army - with an exceedingly high number of soft reservists- remained intact with command and control relatively well maintained and relatively low casualties. Without doubt one of the must successful retirements in recent warfare. That said as a (very)exj journo/marketing man I am only too aware of what happens when book publicist get to work and I look forward to the book greatly Best regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salesie Posted 27 August , 2011 Share Posted 27 August , 2011 Jerry, Thanks for your response the head clinician tells me I am recovering now! I would argue near route too. Under the circumstances it was hugely successful. Certainly a great deal of 'fog of war' confusion a number of important - inevitable - rearguards But an army - with an exceedingly high number of soft reservists- remained intact with command and control relatively well maintained and relatively low casualties. Without doubt one of the must successful retirements in recent warfare. That said as a (very)exj journo/marketing man I am only too aware of what happens when book publicist get to work and I look forward to the book greatly Best regards David Perhaps the greatest tribute of all, to the way the retreat was handled and of its value to the opening phases of the war, comes from the commander of the German 1st Army, von Kluck himself: From Smith-Dorrien's memoirs, "Perhaps Von Kluck's own testimony is as weighty as any which could be produced. I therefore quote from a letter dated 22nd June 1924 from Major-General the Hon. Sir F. Bingham, who, on recently becoming Governor of Jersey, had just resigned the position he had held for years as British Chief of the Military Mission in Germany : " I saw Von Kluck again and asked him if you might quote what he said, and he said: ' Certainly, he may say that I always had the greatest admiration for the British Expeditionary Force. It was the wonderful kernel of a great Army. I have already said it in my book. The way the retreat was carried out was remarkable. I tried very hard to outflank them, but I could not do so. If I had succeeded the war would have been won.' "" Cheers-salesie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelob Posted 27 August , 2011 Share Posted 27 August , 2011 I'd be interested to know how much there is about Le Fayt as I have a man in the Connaught Rangers who was involved there. I always thought Lanrezac deserved credit for insisting to Joffre that the German army was swinging a lot further west than Joffre thought and as a result of the dithering (acc to Hew Strachan) was forced to fight where he didn't want to be ie in the valley of the Sambre.Sir John French also ignored his own (correct) intelligence as to the German strength apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 27 August , 2011 Share Posted 27 August , 2011 Liam, I have dealt with Le Grand Fayt in some detail and attempted to piece together what actually happened there. There is quite a body of useful evidence sourced from POW reports that throw more light onto the rearguard action that was fought above the village by Leader,Turner and Barker while Abercrombie and party were being ambushed in the village itself. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelob Posted 27 August , 2011 Share Posted 27 August , 2011 Thanks Jerry I'd be interested very much in that as I never could find out a huge amount about Le Fayt,my understanding has been that the 2Bn Connaught Rangers lost nearly have their men there but I could never verify that for sure and of course I am as always open to correction and enlightenment. Looking forward to reading your book! Regards,Liam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 27 August , 2011 Share Posted 27 August , 2011 Jerry, Thanks for your response the head clinician tells me I am recovering now! I would argue near route too. Under the circumstances it was hugely successful. Certainly a great deal of 'fog of war' confusion a number of important - inevitable - rearguards But an army - with an exceedingly high number of soft reservists- remained intact with command and control relatively well maintained and relatively low casualties. Without doubt one of the must successful retirements in recent warfare. That said as a (very)exj journo/marketing man I am only too aware of what happens when book publicist get to work and I look forward to the book greatly Best regards David I hesitate to appear too pedantic but I believe we ought to distinguish a route from a rout. English emphasises the different spelling and meaning by pronouncing the words differently so there is no excuse for us as there might be for our fellow forumites in USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 27 August , 2011 Share Posted 27 August , 2011 Liam, Grand Fayt was one of those actions that really should not have taken place at all, the battalion were designated rearguard to the division and were held up north of the village by the heavy movement of French territorials moving across their path. The CO - Abercrombie - halted the battalion but then decided to respond to the threat of German forces by leading a large group himself, and from all accounts leaving no instructions to the remaining companies. With his force effectively split the battalion became leaderless and it was really the remaining company commanders who saved the day. The story of Abercrombie's ambush in the village and his subsequent flight across country to Landrecies ended with his capture. Subsequently there were Connaught Rangers scattered far and wide but enough of the battalion remained to take an active part in the Aisne battle in Sept/October. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelob Posted 27 August , 2011 Share Posted 27 August , 2011 Hi Jerry I appreciate the info it sounds very interesting.I was under the impression Abercrombie was killed at Le Fayt so thanks for the update. Regards,Liam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinspace Posted 27 August , 2011 Share Posted 27 August , 2011 Liam, Jerry would know for sure but I think Abercrombie was wounded as well as captured and died in a POW camp. There is an old thread that touched on this (I think). Regards, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinspace Posted 27 August , 2011 Share Posted 27 August , 2011 Liam, He died as a POW for sure as the CWGC shows the date of death as 5 Nov., 1915 (buried in Berlin South-Western Cemetery). Here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33331 is the thread I was thinking of, with a photo and more info. I might be wrong about him being wounded at Le Grand Fayt though as there is no mention of it. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelob Posted 28 August , 2011 Share Posted 28 August , 2011 Thanks Dave for the info,interesting reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 28 August , 2011 Share Posted 28 August , 2011 Regarding Abercrombie, I could find no evidence that he was wounded at Le Grand Fayt, none of the accounts I found mention it and certainly it was not mentioned by Lt Col Thompson RAMC -who met them at Mariolles. Lt Jocelyn Hardy, whose POW report is quite detailed and who was with Abercrombie when he was captured, makes no mention of it either. Yes, sadly Abercrombie died in captivity but those of you who love escape stories will know all about Hardy and his adventures, possibly one of the most prolific escapers of the Great War period. As for casualties, official figures put the Grand Fayt escapade at 6 Officers and 280 ORs. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 29 August , 2011 Share Posted 29 August , 2011 Noted. My use of route the second time was meant as a (slight) joke in view of my error in my earlier post - ie deliberate. Interestingly ofcourse the Americans pronounce rout as route. How do they pronounce route? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 29 August , 2011 Share Posted 29 August , 2011 David - you will be amused to know that "route" is pronounced as "rout". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 29 August , 2011 Share Posted 29 August , 2011 Anything to do with roote ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 11 November , 2011 Share Posted 11 November , 2011 According to the Pen and Sword website the book has been published - 9th November - so I imagine it should begin appearing very soon! This gives me the opportunity to say a very big thank you to all the members of the forum for their assistance with the miriad of questions I asked - your help had been acknowledged in the book. The more observant will have already noticed I'm busy seeking clarification on a host of questions about the Aisne at the moment - The book - about the Aisne campaign of 1914 - is due out in October 2012. Once again many thanks everyone. Jerry Murland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 11 November , 2011 Share Posted 11 November , 2011 To many of those who performed it, the manoeuvre was called a withdrawal. The pre-war staff work, the engaged troops and junior leaders were magnificent, much of the middle management was good, some of the senior leaders were not at all good, the overall commander was very poor, the allies were dreadful, and the enemy were over-confident and over-stretched. Who needs another book? [me, actually, if only to see if the author gets it right!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 11 November , 2011 Share Posted 11 November , 2011 Jerry Well done on your latest publication. If it is as good as the other two your readership will be well served. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 19 December , 2011 Share Posted 19 December , 2011 just in case anyone is thinking of a late Christmas present, here is a review from the Daly History Blog - you can read the rest of it at: http://dalyhistory.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/retreat-and-rearguard-1914-the-befs-actions-from-mons-to-the-marne-by-jerry-murland/ Murland has made a fantatic contribution to the history of the BEF on the Western Front. Impeccably researched, it is based on a wealth of primary and secondary material. In particular I was very impressed with the maps, which really helped to gain a feel for the battles of August 1914. He has dealt very well not only with giving a full and insightful narrative of the campaign, but has also shed light on often overlooked areas – the relations between French, Haig and Smith-Dorrien, and between French and Joffre and Lanzerac; the myth that the BEF’s marksmanship was so rapid that the Germans thought that every man was armed with a machine gun; and he has also given new prominence to the sterling work of the gunners and sappers during the retreat. A retreat in contact with the enemy is perhaps the most challenging military maneouvre to pull off – if it works, you have barely survived; if it fails, you have a rout. Not only was it a success for the BEF get itself back to the Marne in the state that it did, but it is also very commendable that Murland has looked at every last little aspect of the campaign in such a forensic yet fulsome manner. As good as John Terraine’s book on Mons is, I found Jerry Murland’s much more insightful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 20 January , 2012 Admin Share Posted 20 January , 2012 I am reading this at present and enjoying it very much I'm following the actions using a modern day maps and making good sense of what went on. Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 January , 2012 Share Posted 20 January , 2012 I am reading this at present and enjoying it very much I'm following the actions using a modern day maps and making good sense of what went on. Michelle that's more than Sir J French did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 20 January , 2012 Share Posted 20 January , 2012 Sir John is a much maligned Field Marshal, but he was trying to command with staff that had not worked together before, but one should recall that prior to the war there was only one (Army) Corps HQ in being. GHQ and the other Corps HQ were rather ad hoc creations and one Corps commander died on the way. In some respects e.g. logistic support, very much the responsibilty of GHQ, much good work was done. The book 'Confusion of Command' well justifies its title. Even Haig in I Corps had difficulty. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 20 January , 2012 Share Posted 20 January , 2012 Sir John, as you say, was handed a hot potato. A ludicrously small force and was told not to get too many of them killed. At the same time, he was to play a full part in ejecting the Germans from France and Belgium. He held the BEF together over the first year and the first battles and it is doubtful if anyone could have done much more with the resources he was given. I believe that Haig was correct when he thought that Sir John was not up to the command he was given and it is hard to imagine Sir John commanding at the Somme or later with any success. His health was not great and the strain made it worse. He let himself down with his actions before and after Loos but these were political rather than military . He also did not do himself any favours with his treatment of S-D at Ypres or in his memoirs. He was used by wilier people for their own purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 21 January , 2012 Share Posted 21 January , 2012 This book looks enticing. The trouble is, I'm buying too many : four books on Great War themes bought in the last two months, and only one started ! A question : how does the author perceive Zuber's depiction of the Mons fighting ? Phil (PJA) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 January , 2012 Share Posted 21 January , 2012 Sir John, as you say, was handed a hot potato. A ludicrously small force and was told not to get too many of them killed. At the same time, he was to play a full part in ejecting the Germans from France and Belgium. He held the BEF together over the first year and the first battles and it is doubtful if anyone could have done much more with the resources he was given. I believe that Haig was correct when he thought that Sir John was not up to the command he was given and it is hard to imagine Sir John commanding at the Somme or later with any success. His health was not great and the strain made it worse. He let himself down with his actions before and after Loos but these were political rather than military . He also did not do himself any favours with his treatment of S-D at Ypres or in his memoirs. He was used by wilier people for their own purposes. I think he was often too busy chasing the tarts to concentrate on his day job. He lost his head and nearly lost us the war in the first month. Much maligned? Not enough, as far as I am concerned. A vertically challenged mixture of Sarkozy and Bercow methinks, without the ability to even speak French. Thats it, I shall give up being nice to people after that, and revert to my eponym. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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