Guest krandall1 Posted 16 July , 2004 Share Posted 16 July , 2004 Can anyone assist in finding the following information? 1. My father served as a sergeant in 4 Canadian Mounted Rifles. In the British army, the structure seems to have been 4 troops in a squadron commanded by a major, with a captain as 2ic, plus 3-4 lieutenants. A troop of 38-40 men was broken into 3-4 sections commanded by corporals. How did lieutenants and corporals fit into this structure? Was it the same in the Canadian army/ 2. Although 4CMR was clearly a cavalry regiment, I can find no reference to the use of horses, although I've found references to cavalry charges by British regiments. Does anyone know how 4CMR employed horses? My father was certainly serving in a trench when wounded. Thanks for any assistance. You can reply to this post directly or by e-mail at krandall1@sympatico.ca Keith Randall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 16 July , 2004 Share Posted 16 July , 2004 Despite it's name, the 4/CMR was an infantry battalion; part of 8th Brigade, 3rd (Canadian) Division. The only horses they had were in the battalion transport section. Like all infantry battalions they would have had four companies, comprised of four platoons, each commanded by a Lieutenant (no 2nd Lieutenants in the CEF) with a Platoon Sergeant as his right hand man. If your father was a Sergeant, he may well have been one of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 16 July , 2004 Share Posted 16 July , 2004 Hi Keith: Yes indeed, the Canadian Mounted Rifles originally employed horses. They were part of the 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles Brigade and were named the 4th Regiment, Canadian Mounted Rifles. The 4th CMR was raised in Toronto from the Governor General's Body Guard and the 9th Mississauga Horse. When the Western Front became stalemated and trench warfare was the order of the day, the six CMR regiments were turned into infantry battalions. The 3rd CMR was absorbed by the 1st and 2nd CMR and the 6th CMR was absorbed by the 4th and 5th CMR. The 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th CMR formed the 8th Canadian Infantry Brigade. You can view the 4th CMR's war diary here. I have a copy of their official history The 4TH Canadian Mounted Rifles 1914-1919. If you'd like anything looked up, just let me know. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 16 July , 2004 Share Posted 16 July , 2004 Hi Keith: There are two men with the name Randall listed in the 4th CMR's nominal roll: (Regimental Number) 3233465 (Name) Randall, George Burton (Original Overseas Unit) Canadian Railway Troops (Joined Battalion In The Field) July 17, 1918 (Regimental Record) Pte. Struck off strength September 19, 1919 3233465 Randall, G. B. attestation papers are here. (Regimental Number) 109561 (Name) Randall, John William (Original Overseas Unit) 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles (Joined Battalion In The Field) October 24, 1915 (Regimental Record) Pte. Sgt. Wounded February 14, 1916; POW June 2, 1916; Repatriated September 14, 1917; Struck off strength April 29, 1918 109561 Randall, J. W. attestation papers are here. Was 109561 Sgt. John William Randall your father? Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 16 July , 2004 Share Posted 16 July , 2004 Whilst on the subject, if I can jump in, this man or should I say his parents were local to me. Any info would be appreciated. VERITY, JOSEPH CYRIL J C Canadian Private 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles (British Columbia Regt.) 31 01/11/1917 687129 Son of Watson and Mary Verity, of Warren House, Ellington, Masham, Yorks., England. YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL Thanks, Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 16 July , 2004 Share Posted 16 July , 2004 Hi Roger: 687129 Pte. Joseph Cyril Verity, original unit 172nd Infantry Battalion, KIA November 1, 1917 (Passchendaele) as a member of the 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles. Pte. Joseph Cyril Verity's attestation papers are here. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 17 July , 2004 Share Posted 17 July , 2004 Garth, thankyou. Pte Verity's name is on the Roll of Honour in Fearby village hall near Masham N. Yorkshire. It is on my list of "to research" but haven't quite got round to yet. Can you make out his place of residence in Canada? Thanks again, Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 17 July , 2004 Share Posted 17 July , 2004 (edited) Can you make out his place of residence in Canada? Hi Roger: Pte. Verity enlisted in Kamloops, British Columbia. He lists Keremeos, British Columbia as his place of residence. Keremeos is located in the Similkameen Valley and it's about 150 miles from where he lived to where he enlisted. He lists his occupation as rancher which is consistent with the farm land in the Similkameen Valley. Garth Edited 17 July , 2004 by mordac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 17 July , 2004 Share Posted 17 July , 2004 Garth, Now you have pointed it out I can see it says Keremeos, I don't think I could've figured it out on my own though, thanks very much. roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest krandall1 Posted 17 July , 2004 Share Posted 17 July , 2004 Paul, Garth and Roger... Thanks for all the information. You're great! Yes, Garth, my dad was John William Randall, emigrated from Orkney c. 1910. I have a hard copy of his entier war record. Interestingly, while a POW he and thousands of others were shipped to Chateau D'Oex in Switzerland, where they have a fascinating museum I've visited. Accepting POWs was a way for the Swiss to fill up their hotels and make a few francs when the war devastated their tourist business. And Garth, I may take you up on your offer about the 4CMR history. I just have to figure out what my questions are. One would be: after forming in Toronto, where did 4CMR train? I came across a reference someplace that they did not use Valcartier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 17 July , 2004 Share Posted 17 July , 2004 One would be: after forming in Toronto, where did 4CMR train? I came across a reference someplace that they did not use Valcartier. Hi Keith: I've scanned the first eight pages of the 4th CMR's history which covers their formation, training, and time in England. As I mentioned, the book is The 4TH Canadian Mounted Rifles 1914-1919, by Captain S. G. Bennett, M.C., and it was published in 1926. It's interesting to note the 4th CMR, though dismounted and acting as an infantry battalion, continued as a cavalry establishment in France and Belgium until December 31, 1915. One question that pops up from time to time on the forum is the repatriation of POW's during the war. Can you give us any information on your father's repatriation in 1917. Thanks. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 17 July , 2004 Share Posted 17 July , 2004 2/8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Guest krandall1 Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 Garth... That's wonderful - thanks for the first 8 pages. I saw the 4CMR history at the Canadian Forces Directorate of History several years ago, but took insufficient notes. I plan to be in Ottawa this summer and will look it up again. I have no specific information on my father's repatriation. In part, his "Casualty Form - Active Service" reads: 12-1-17: transferred to Hotel Parthon [Chateau d'Oex] Switzerland 17-9-17: now repatriated and admitted to #1 London General Hospital 16-10-17: tfd Can. Military Hospital 30-11-17: invalided to Canada 21-2-18: to convalescent home. It will take a little more time to decode the 80-year-old handwriting, but that's the general thrust, and there's no further information. I deeply appreciate your assistance, and hope we'll stay in touch. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Smy Posted 5 August , 2004 Share Posted 5 August , 2004 I am interested in any information on Colonel Graham Thomson Lyall, VC. He served in 4 CMR from June 1916 to September 1917 when he was sent to England to be commissioned. He won his VC at Bourlon Wood in September 1918 while serving as a Lieutenant in the 102nd Battalion, CEF. I have the history of 4 CMR and have gone through the war diaries of 4 CMR and 8 CIB. I am looking for unpublished material, perhaps in a personal diary, or such. Any info appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest krandall1 Posted 5 August , 2004 Share Posted 5 August , 2004 Bill Smy: I can't help with info about Colonel Graham Thomson Lyall, VC. I got my father's complete record from DND archives some years ago: medical report, posting history, etc. If you haven't tried that, it may be a place to start. Best wishes, Keith Randall PS to Garth: My local library has ordered the 4CMR history from the National Library in Ottawa. Thanks for your assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Bluestein Posted 5 August , 2004 Share Posted 5 August , 2004 The below photographs have never been published and deal with the 4th CMR's attack on October 26, 1917. I hope they are of interest, They originally came with a Great War medal pair to a Canadian Engineer. The typed description, were transcribed from the reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Bluestein Posted 5 August , 2004 Share Posted 5 August , 2004 another... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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