1st Batallion KSLI 1914

[Jim Clay]

Dear Pals

I'm still building a picture of the short life of Private James Webley, 10092, "D" Coy, 1st Bn, KSLI, who died aged 19 on 25 October 1914 and is commemorated on the Ploegsteert Memorial.

Annette has very kindly given me details of the activities of the Bn in the few days surrounding 25 Oct, and this website has provided the background history of the Bn.

Family history told me by my Mum (92 last week and still all marbles intact - although memory only slightly better than mine <bg> - is that her Uncle Jim was very young (she thought only 17) when he joined up, but at the outbreak of War he was 19.

Only now does it dawn on me that perhaps he did join the Army at 17 a couple of years before the War.

What do Pals think? Would the KSLI have recruited a lad of 17 in say 1912? (I'm sure they would) And, if he joined up after the War started, would they have posted him to 1 Bn, a Regular unit?

I'll be glad of your comments.

Best regards

Jim

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Jim

I can not give large details at moment, mainly because I do not yet have firm details only guess'. But I have noticed for starts that many with Regt. No.''s near James were in their teens when killed. I sure they joined before the War ?. I am not yet sure were the Regular numbers end and the Kitckeners start, still lots of work to do before I have full picture.

Annette

[Jim Clay]

Hi Annette

Thanks for the comments. Good luck with your continuing research!

Regards

Jim

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Jim

A local paper recorded that 10131 L/Cpl. Whitefoot enlisted in 1912, but that’s all I have on enlistment dates in the number range near your great uncle’s number. Now if this is correct and assuming that those numbers following on from L/Cpl. Whitefoot also enlisted in 1912 then the follow men-lads (see below) were all about 16 to 17 when they enlisted ? In fact if 10141 Pte. Davies’ age is correct then he would have been 13 or 14 when he enlisted ?

(Can I take this opportunity to ask anyone who have dates of enlistment for any K.S.L.I. chaps, could you please pass them on to me. One day when my database is finished I will be opening it to everyone either via Regimental Museum or the internet but I am not sure if it possible to up load a database in working order to a ISP or what ever its called ? But anyway the more info. I have the better for all who are interest in the Regiment).

All these men landed with the 1/K.S.L.I. on the 10th and 11th September 1914. This list is just a small example, there are many many more in this number range with such young ages.

10141 Pte. Davies, William—K. in A. 09/08/15 aged 16.

10151 A/Cpl. McAvan, Frederick—D. of W. 23/07/16 aged 21.

10172 Pte. Preece, Arthur Henry—K. in A. 26/07/15 aged 19.

10187 L/Sgt. Page, Fitz Charles Stebbings—D. of W. 03/09/16 aged 20.

10192 Pte. Davies, Herbert—D. of W. 28/06/15 aged 19.

10261 Pte. Chant, Thomas Edward—K. in A. 09/08/15 aged 19.

10281 Pte. Bartlett, Victor Percy—K. in A. 23/10/14 aged 19.

10290 Pte. Matthews, Frederick—K. in A. 10/11/15 aged 17.

10316 Pte. Price, Alfred Edward—K. in A. 23/10/14 aged 19.

10367 Pte. Hopkins, Frederick Jesse—K. in A. 09/08/15 aged 19.

Annette

[Jim Clay]

Hi Annette

This is great, thanks so much.

While not conclusive, this seems pretty compelling evidence that Jim Webley was a regular of maybe 2 years standing when War broke out, don't you think? And it certainly seems to support my Mum's firm recollection that she was told he was only 17 when he joined up.

Again, many thanks and every success with your continuing research into the Regt's history.

Kind regards

Jim

[Jim Clay]

Annette and other Pals

Before anyone jumps in and tells me so <vbg> I realise that the evidence in Annette's last post which I claim as "compelling" is probably better described as "attractive and potentially compelling - but very far from conclusive"!! Much more firm info is needed to make it otherwise....

Regards

Jim

[Paul Reed]

It was quite possible to join the regular army at this age before WW1; several of the veterans I knew did this. Indeed, one was only 12 when he joined the LFs. He didn't need to lie about his age, as this was quite legal; he had legally left school and enlisted as a Boy Soldier. He was not posted overseas in 1914, but arrived at Ypres in January 1915, still aged only 17 but because he was a trained Machine-Gunner, he was needed. By that time he was an 'old sweat' of five years standing.

This is one aspect of 'boy soldiers' not explained in the recent documentary, but which I hope will be in the book of the programme.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Jim

Quote -I realise that the evidence in Annette's last post which I claim as "compelling" is probably better described as "attractive and potentially compelling - but very far from conclusive"!! Much more firm info is needed to make it otherwise.

I agree Jim.

Annette

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Paul

'boy soldiers' did tend to make out that the Army forced under age boys in the ranks to feed the minceing machine during the war. What people forget today is that boys of 14 were classed as men in those days, in the 1891 census two of my Great uncle aged 14 and 16 are listed as qurrey men. So when the war broke out and 16 year old boys turned up to join the Army it was not a case of turn them away they only boys.

Annette

[Guest Padre]

Jim, I recall my father telling me that he joined at age 14. However from searching and known facts to date by me. Dad was born in 1896 and the information states that the 11th(Prince Alberts Own) Hussars were formed in August 1914 which, if he had not enlisted earlier would have put his age at 19 years when at Mons from Aug 1914 to November 1914.

My brother and I are sure that he told us that he enlisted at age 14.

Padre

[Guest Padre]

Jim, I recall my father telling me that he joined at age 14. However from searching and known facts to date by me. Dad was born in 1896 and the information states that the 11th(Prince Alberts Own) Hussars were formed in August 1914 which, if he had not enlisted earlier would have put his age at 19 years when at Mons from Aug 1914 to November 1914.

My brother and I are sure that he told us that he enlisted at age 14.

Padre

PS: His regimental number was 6252 with the rank of Corporal so that may suggest that he had enlisted before the war as I believe many did at 14.

[Jim Clay]

Annette

I think at this point my family history entry for Jim Webley will have to say he *possibly* joined up around 1912, and that the info you've found might support this, but nothing is proven!

Paul/Padre

Thanks both for your info. I guess to the family, 17 would have seemed very young to be "going to war" but, in the context of the times, it certainly wasn't exceptional.

Regards

Jim

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Jim

I have been thinking about this (ok no wise cracks anyone please - I do use the old grey cells sometimes), James and the others mentioned did not join up at the start of war that for sure, as all entered the battle field on 10-9-14, that would have meant only one months training (there is a thread about the minium amount of training but I can remember the gist of it). The Regimental History records that approximately 800 of the Army Reserve who were not immediately needed by the 1st Battalion joining the Reserve Battalion, the 1st Battalion would not have been sending untrained men when there were 800 trained Army Reservists around. This suggests to me that James and the other mentioned were classed as fully trained professional soldiers ? I would put my money on them having joined up in 1912 or 13.

I can't wait to find out if my guess work is wright or wrong.

Annette

[Jim Clay]

Hi Annette

No jokes - this sort of pursuit keeps the little grey cells alive!

I know you'll keep the Forum in the picture as you get more evidence on the Regt. In the meantime, this makes the "attractive" evidence a little more appealing. My aged Mum remembers a little more a little further back each time we speak and the "joined up at 17" thing was a fairly recent recollection.

All the best

Jim