"The Guns of August" Barbara Tuchman

[yelob]

Hi Hazel,

The problem with this subject is the need to read many perspectives and to treat them all with caution,luckily or sadly depending on your bank balance there are a lot of great books out there and you will find as you dig that certain aspects

of the conflict are more interesting than others,depending on the individual. For me the origins of the war and the whole prelude to it since the creation of Germany is fascinating and I suspect there's a lifetime of reading there.

I would put in a spoke for Liddell Hart's The First World War which is very readable and whatever else his faults he writes

very well. I would also suggest if you can get hold of the Channel 4 documentary based on Strachan's book well worth a look

as it puts the war in its proper global perspective and very much away from the anglocentric Western front bias.

Outstanding and must reads to my mind for the personal perspective are

Roses of No Man's Land Lyn McDonald

The War the Infantry Knew by Terence Dunn

Her Privates We by Frederic Manning

The Seven Pillars of Wisdom by TE Lawrence

Happy reading! Liam

[hazelclark]

Hi Liam!

Actually I just not long ago finished "Roses" and put a bit about it in an earlier post. I know exactly what you mean by needing to read as much as possible and to keep an open mind. I was brought up in Scotland and firmly believed for most of my life that everything the British said and did was "gospel"!! I have of course dicovered that the British were anything but perfect. Having said that, although a lot of war history is as you say anglocentric, I am finding that there is quite a lot of "anti-British" stuff being written and where it is being objective I don't have a problem but some of it is either downright untrue or at least overstated.

I am currently reading a book by a Canadian author called "Legacy of Valour". It is about the Canadians at Passchendaele, but fully a third of it is about the prelude, and the political machinations. It is very well written and a bit like G.O.A. in that I am finding it quite exciting.

Have added your suggestions to my list. I read a lot and FAST.

Hazel C.

[yelob]

Hi Hazel,

Great to be able to read fast when there is so much to get through but sometimes I find too it's good to linger

and reread,especially with complex events like the origins of the war. Just a thought, one of the

best books on the war in recent years is by the Scot Hew Strachan especially Vol1 of his planned 3 volume set 'To Arms'

-very dense but magnificent and maybe a good one to go to when you have had a good overview-anyway here's a interesting podcast about his own take on the war and how he was brought up with a certain viewpoint which encouraged him to look a lot further afield.......worth a listen if you have the time as he is considered one of the leading authorities on the whole conflict.

http://www.pritzkermilitarylibrary.org/Home/hew-strachan.aspx

Best/Liam

[hazelclark]

Thanks Liam for the link to Hew Strachan's lecture which I watched this afternoon. ( He doesn't sound Scottish, pronounces his name like an Englishman, and is "Hew" not Welsh?!!)

He wasn't very complimentary about Martin Gilbert's book but like G.O.A., I enjoyed it and will read it again at some point. I also enjoyed Keegan's book which he didn't sound too keen on either. It will be interesting to read his own book which is also on my list. His view on some of the war leaders is rather interesting but with my limited knowledge, I can't quite accept that, for instance, the American president Wilson was quite as altruistic as Strachan suggests. From what I have so far read, I thought there was a good bit of self interest in what he did. Maybe some of what Strachan said was "tongue in cheek"??

Strachan also made comparison between some of the war poets and mentioned Wilfred Owen and Rupert Brooke. Owen's poetry is much darker to me than Brooke's, (but as an ex-pat it is likely just nostalgia), and that may be the reason that Brooke was so popular AFTER the war.

I will listen to the lecture again when I have some time, and thanks again for the reading suggestions and the link.

Hazel C

P.S. He made the suggestion that it was useful to read several overviews of the war and zero in on the parts which one finds most interesting. That was more or less what I have been doing.

Hi Hazel,

Great to be able to read fast when there is so much to get through but sometimes I find too it's good to linger

and reread,especially with complex events like the origins of the war. Just a thought, one of the

best books on the war in recent years is by the Scot Hew Strachan especially Vol1 of his planned 3 volume set 'To Arms'

-very dense but magnificent and maybe a good one to go to when you have had a good overview-anyway here's a interesting podcast about his own take on the war and how he was brought up with a certain viewpoint which encouraged him to look a lot further afield.......worth a listen if you have the time as he is considered one of the leading authorities on the whole conflict.

http://www.pritzkerm...w-strachan.aspx

Best/Liam

[yelob]

Hi Hazel, glad the link was of interest and you are right every author has their own perspective and bias but in general

Strachan does try to level the playing field a bit and clear the fog of partisanship which is one reason he is so respected.

Sometimes he can be too balanced or if you like overcompensates too much in the other direction,such as his DVD series where equal weight is given to for instance the German involvement in East Africa, so that if you arrived from Mars you would think that the East African Campaign was as important as the Western Front. I suspect though that this is deliberate to

foster debate and make us all rethink a bit,no bad thing in a conflict which has and does have such huge propoganda potential.

I forgot to mention a small book, again Strachan related which is extracts from diaries and letters of the time from all sides

and all theatres and a very useful check against the westerncentric view of the war,it's called 'A War in Words' by Palmer and Wallis (edited by Strachan)

All the best,Liam

[phil andrade]

Liam,

You must be thanked and congratulated for posting that link. A great Christmas present, and exemplifying the forum at its best. Thoroughly captivating, I was spellbound for an hour and a half.

Phil (PJA)

[hazelclark]

Hi Liam!

Have ordered Strachan's 1st volume book but the other one "A war in words" is, unfortunately not available on Amazon.ca will pick it up next time I am in Scotland or get someone to send it to me. Have ordered quite a few books from Amazon and the library so have lots of reading material. There are some books one wants just to read, and others one wants to own. Unfortunately, quite a few books that would be of interest to me are not available over here, and having hard cover reference books sent air mail from Britain costs an arm and a leg. We have an excellent used book store here but most books on the war are Canadian orientated, apart from the odd general history. The more one reads, the more critical one becomes, and it is good to re-read books. One gets more out of them second time around and the knowledge gained in between helps put things in perspective.

Hazel C

Hi Hazel, glad the link was of interest and you are right every author has their own perspective and bias but in general

Strachan does try to level the playing field a bit and clear the fog of partisanship which is one reason he is so respected.

Sometimes he can be too balanced or if you like overcompensates too much in the other direction,such as his DVD series where equal weight is given to for instance the German involvement in East Africa, so that if you arrived from Mars you would think that the East African Campaign was as important as the Western Front. I suspect though that this is deliberate to

foster debate and make us all rethink a bit,no bad thing in a conflict which has and does have such huge propoganda potential.

I forgot to mention a small book, again Strachan related which is extracts from diaries and letters of the time from all sides

and all theatres and a very useful check against the westerncentric view of the war,it's called 'A War in Words' by Palmer and Wallis (edited by Strachan)

All the best,Liam

[yelob]

Hi Phil, glad you enjoyed the link,it was nice to hear him at last as I spent the last six months with 'To Arms'.

Hi Hazel, sorry to hear about the bad availability but there are a lot of sellers on Amazon.uk who sell second hand and

post worldwide, and the quality is superb. I rarely buy new these days. Don't forget Abebooks.com which has a huge selection and a lot from US sellers which I would imagine is handy for you. 'To Arms' is a thorax crusher and a book to read slowly as it is crammed with a lot of information, I tried to read it fast and was frustrated but it is magnificent if you have the time for it. You are very wise to be critical and to evaluate things for yourself though it does take a lot of reading. If you have time for how interesting and controversial even 'known' aspects of the war can be have a look at this thread

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9240

Best Wishes/Liam

[bob lembke]

Good morning Hazel,

"The guns of august" was a successful book of the 60's. It won the Pullitzer price and was appreciated by J.F. Kennedy himself.

But I want to warn you of believing everything that is written by Barbara Tuchman in this book. Especially about the military operations. I'm concerned with the battle of Frontiers, at the end of august. I found a lot of mistakes in this book. Even about the personalities. I believe Barbara Tuchman has invented a part of what she wrote. For me, this book, or some chapters of the book are half a novel. It may be the reason why it was (and it still is) so successful.

Jean-Claude

Valuable comments, Jean-Claude. I only read the book many years ago, before the great bulk of my Great War study. Nevertheless, her biases and inaccuracies were clearly apparent. She did have a dramatic description of something of interest to me, that I would love to use in something I am writing, but I held off until I found the original. (I am very wary of using translated material until I can see the passage in the original language and text) I finally found the original passage, in French, by a Belgian professor at the University of Liege, and the passage in question, while dramatic, is an utter fabrication and invention, despite the professor claiming that he and friends were eye-witnesses to the event, during the occupation of Liege. It is totally impossible that the depicted event could have happened. Perhaps she is not primarily responsible, but it further reenforces my adversion. She and others in her family often have offensive ethnic and racial stereotypes front and center in their writings, to my mind.

I could also mention that, in my experience, she comes from a family that has written highly political and biased material, often factually inaccurate, often purposefully, for three generations.

My wife, a "Super-Librarian", and probably the most literate person I have ever met, said that she considers Tuchman a "publicist", not an historian.

Bob Lembke

[hazelclark]

Hi Bob!

I had in fact heard of the Tuchman family, but have not read anything else she has written. I nevertheless enjoyed that particular book, and did not find it overtly political. Any historical errors did not detract from the overall enjoyment of the book , and I can't think that they were intentional.. I would still recommend it, bearing in mind that most people nowadays would have sources to compare and would in hindsight be more critical than at the time it was written.

Hazel C.

[hazelclark]

hi Liam!

Thanks again for the new link. Unfortunately, my mother died in Scotland last night so it will likely be a few days before I watch it..

Hazel C.

Hi Phil, glad you enjoyed the link,it was nice to hear him at last as I spent the last six months with 'To Arms'.

Hi Hazel, sorry to hear about the bad availability but there are a lot of sellers on Amazon.uk who sell second hand and

post worldwide, and the quality is superb. I rarely buy new these days. Don't forget Abebooks.com which has a huge selection and a lot from US sellers which I would imagine is handy for you. 'To Arms' is a thorax crusher and a book to read slowly as it is crammed with a lot of information, I tried to read it fast and was frustrated but it is magnificent if you have the time for it. You are very wise to be critical and to evaluate things for yourself though it does take a lot of reading. If you have time for how interesting and controversial even 'known' aspects of the war can be have a look at this thread

http://1914-1918.inv...?showtopic=9240

Best Wishes/Liam

[yelob]

Hi Hazel,

I am very sorry indeed to hear about your Mother,please accept my condolences-I know how difficult it can be

to lose a parent.

Prayers and Best Wishes,Liam

[b3rn]

Would like to know more specifics about the inaccuracies in 'Guns of August'. It is a fantastic read. (Close second, the Schlieffen Plan thread - blimey.)

[b3rn]

Purple patch ... have slungshot straight into Peter Hart's The Somme. Interlibrary loan timing impeccable.

[Stoppage Drill]

My recollection is that Tuchman's book was originally published in the US under the title "August 1914" and that this title was changed to avoid confusion with Solzhenitsyn's work of the same name. Am I right or is my memory playing me up ?

[truthergw]

Would like to know more specifics about the inaccuracies in 'Guns of August'. It is a fantastic read. (Close second, the Schlieffen Plan thread - blimey.)

Barbara Tuchman's book was published 1962. The contents reflect the known facts at the time, that is 50 years ago. I do not believe that there are factual inaccuracies in the book so much as we now know more. A lot of information has surfaced since then. If you liked it, then I can recommend A Distant Tower and The Zimmerman Telegram, the latter of great interest to Americans in particular, dealing as it does with a diplomatic incident which helped bring USA into the war. Ms Tuchman receives mixed reviews in USA. I am not sure why. I suspect that it may be because the flavour of her books tends to what the Americans think of as liberal

.

[Stoppage Drill]

My recollection is that Tuchman's book was originally published in the US under the title "August 1914" and that this title was changed to avoid confusion with Solzhenitsyn's work of the same name. Am I right or is my memory playing me up ?

No, it isn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guns_of_August

So you may come across a copy entitled "August 1914" as I thought. Same book.

[Tom W.]

Would like to know more specifics about the inaccuracies in 'Guns of August'. It is a fantastic read. (Close second, the Schlieffen Plan thread - blimey.)

Tuchman's obituary in the New York Times indicates that she was known for having problems with the work she produced.

Writing in The New York Times, Cyril Falls, a British officer turned military historian, said Mrs. Tuchman ''writes so brilliantly and inspiringly.'' [The Guns of August], he said, was ''lucid, fair, critical and witty.''

But he contended that her performance was uneven, and ''the errors and omissions amount to a formidable total.'' For his part, Bruce Bliven, writing in The New Yorker, complained that ''Mrs. Tuchman leans toward seeing issues as black and white.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/07/obituaries/barbara-tuchman-dead-at-77-a-pulitzer-winning-historian.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

[Guest]

Documentary based on the book 1:40:00

Mike

[Old Tom]

I have just read the 2014 edition of this book by Penguin. Although I agree, more or less, with the comments above, I found it a very good read; it deals with events in the first month of the war with little reference to previous or following events and takes a detached view when presenting an account of campaigns in Belgium, France and Russia. The style is quite racy but seems to deal adequately with the major aspects of the various operations while providing a number of interesting links between concurrent events in the different theaters. The operations of the BEF are put into perspective and the shortcomings of its commander and headquarters sre stressed. The cover has a styleised image of a large field gun with a detachment wearing steel helmets, inappropriate for August 1914 - as others have said there are other matters of detail, but these did spoil my enjoyment

Old Tom