24463988 Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 Hi there, This is part of an image showing Serbian troops which probably dates from either late 1917 or the first part of 1918. I am trying to ID the rifle. I don't think it is the Serb M1899 Mauser and am unsure if it is a Berthier because the prominent ridge in front of the trigger guard appears to be absent. Maybe it is Russian. Any suggestions please? Unfortunately I am unable to show the full image and, in any case, none of the other men shown in focus (not many!) have their rifles in better view. All suggestions gratefully received. Many thanks - and Happy New Year! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 Bit out of my area but I would guess it IS a Serbian M1899 Mauser. IIRC these are very similar to the Chilean M1895 and this looks very much like that to me. I would discount the Berthier on the grounds of the tigger-guard / magazine baseplate and also the flat spring that holds the front band on (not present on the Berthier) I do not have an 1895 or 1899 Mauser to compare it to but I do have a Spanish 1893 Mauser and it looks very similar to that. The straight stock and the flat spring for the front band/bayonet mount. It also looks to me as though he has a brass muzzle cover in place as well as the cleaning rod. Happy to be corrected but I am very confident it is NOT a Berthier and quite confident it is a Mauser. Happy New Year to you too, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 29 December , 2011 Share Posted 29 December , 2011 I agree it is a Mauser of some version. No idea as to what model, as that is outside my expertise. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 29 December , 2011 Share Posted 29 December , 2011 Mark I agree with you, it does look like the M1899 but there is something niggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 29 December , 2011 Share Posted 29 December , 2011 Its a straight bolt, straight-wrist (ie.no pistol grip) Mauser style rifle with the small bayonet lug underneath the front band (so early 'export' not German) This fits with a small number of rifles that were produced in the 1890's, one of which was the M1899, the most common Serbian rifle used in the war. Given that the other distinguishing characteristics are all obscured from view, yet the obvious candidate is not ruled out, then its most likely the M1899. PS. Link added HERE to an example of the Serbian M1899 rifle held at the IWM. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24463988 Posted 5 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2012 Thanks very much folks. The picture is a killer because so much of the rifle is not shown and all the other rifles are obscured. It is not massively important for the general caption (the original says "Serbian infantry"- thats yer lot!) but I like to add as much as I can - so thanks once again. The photograopher appears to have used an embankment to take a second wider shot, which is snapped in half (they are all very fragile nitrate negatives).I will get it fixed. The others in the set all show Bulgarians - including King Ferdinand, so I can date them all being before his adbication but no closer than that. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 6 January , 2012 Share Posted 6 January , 2012 Mark, I think I have found the answer to your question regarding the rifle used by the Serbians. If you look closely at your photograph of the Serbian soldier carrying his rifle, you can see that the butt is of unusual shape, and much shorter than the typical bolt action rifle butt. I was reading through one of my Purnell's History of WW1 volumes, and noticed a reference to the rifles used by the Serbian Army in WW1, and it shows the same rifle as in your photograph. It is in the top of the photograph, and is listed as a " Serbian Mauser Milanovic 10.15-mm rifle M78/80 ". The unusual shape of the butt, the long " swan neck " type wrist, the straight bolt, length of the rifle, muzzel and clearing rod all match the photograph. The other rifle shown below it, is a Serbian Cavalry carbine 7-mm by Steyr of Vienna. Hope this helps, Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 January , 2012 Share Posted 6 January , 2012 The unusual shape of the butt, the long " swan neck " type wrist, the straight bolt, length of the rifle, muzzel and clearing rod all match the photograph. You might also want to check the method of bayonet attachment which clearly does not match the rifle in question in the original photograph. The Milanovic rifle features the old-style 'bar on band' method of attaching the bayonet, with the prominent lug visible on the right hand side of the front band. From the original photo you can see that the rifles being carried by these soldiers do not have that lug present, but have a smaller one located under the band. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 6 January , 2012 Share Posted 6 January , 2012 (edited) Leo That is an interesting suggestion. I think I disagree - especially regarding the length If the weapons in the picture you provided are to scale (they look to be part of the same photo and actually physically lying next to each other) then the rifle at the top is barely longer than the carbine and is therefore much too short in my opinion to be the weapon shown in the original picture which is a full length rifle) I cannot make out the short comb on the stock on the original photo perhaps we could see an enlargement, Mark? I had a look at older rifles when I was originally pondering this but my money is still on the standard Serbian Mauser, these too have slender butt-stocks (as do the Spanish and Swedish Mausers of the same period)and fit in all respects as far as I can see. Chris Oh and the bayonet lug! Edited 6 January , 2012 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 6 January , 2012 Share Posted 6 January , 2012 Yes, the bayonet lug appears to be on the side, so not the exact model, although from the following text book information on Serbian Rifles, it was pointing us in the right direction:- " When the Serbs gained their independence from the Turks they immediately made plans to equip their fledgling army with the model G71 rifle, modified to their own specifications and approximately 120,000 were produced. This was the Serbian Model 78/80 rifle, also known as the Mauser-Koka, or Mauser-Milanovic, named after the Serbian Officer responsible for the modifications, with this rifle being converted to handle the 7 x 57mm round. In 1899, Serbia contracted with DWM and Steyr for delivery of the Chilean-style Model 1895 rifle, these were delivered between 1899 and 1906, with further modifications being made during this time. The models designated were M1899, M1899/07 and the model 1899/08. A further updated rifle, the model 1910, a typical German export-style rifle patterned after the Costa Rican model 1910, was ordered in time for the first Balkan War. Every weapon in the Serbian arsenal was in use during World War One ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 6 January , 2012 Share Posted 6 January , 2012 I cannot see what is the problem here. In common with S>S and Chris I can see nothing here that suggests it is anything other than a Serbian M1899 (or 1899/07, visually identical). It cannot be a M1899/08 because that was a carbine. As for the suggestion that it is a Model 78/80 or similar, that is a non starter since apart from the bayonet lug being wrong there is one other little problem. The Model 78/80 was single shot and the rifle in the picture clearly has a normal Mauser magazine. Also, I don't know where that picture of a 78/80 you show came from, but that is not the normal stock for a Serbian 78/80 (or any other nation's version). It cannot be a Model 1910 because that was the export version of the G98 and had a pistol grip stock, whilst the pictured rifle has a straight wristed stock. Lancashire Fusilier - Out of interest, what is the text book you are quoting from? Smith? Ball? Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 6 January , 2012 Share Posted 6 January , 2012 TonyE. The text came from - Mauser Military Rifles of the World - 5th Edition - by Robert W. D. Ball. Whilst it seems that members know the model Mark is trying to identify, and Ball's book confirms it, no photograph has been forthcoming to conclude the issue. Ball's book actually shows the rifle, but I could not get it to copy. A good clear photograph of the actual rifle matching the photograph would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 January , 2012 Share Posted 6 January , 2012 Given that the other distinguishing characteristics are all obscured from view, yet the obvious candidate is not ruled out, then its most likely the M1899. PS. Link added HERE to an example of the Serbian M1899 rifle held at the IWM. Well a photo of an actual WW1 example of the M1899 rifle from the IWM collection has already been linked in post #5, but finding non-modified examples is tough. You have to click on the link shown above (where it is underlined) if you want to have a look at the photo. (Making absolute identifications from photos is a problem.) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 7 January , 2012 Share Posted 7 January , 2012 TonyE. The text came from - Mauser Military Rifles of the World - 5th Edition - by Robert W. D. Ball. Whilst it seems that members know the model Mark is trying to identify, and Ball's book confirms it, no photograph has been forthcoming to conclude the issue. Ball's book actually shows the rifle, but I could not get it to copy. A good clear photograph of the actual rifle matching the photograph would be helpful. My copy of Ball is the 1996 edition, which I think is the first. I did scan both the black and white and also the colour picture of the Serbian Mauser but as you say, they did not come out very well and there is the additional problem of copyright to consider if posted here. I will have to try to find a decent picture elsewhere, but if all else fails I am at the NFC the week after next so will photograph one there! Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24463988 Posted 11 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2012 Is this any more use? MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamphoto Posted 24 January , 2013 Share Posted 24 January , 2013 This is Serbian I -st ban soldiers with Mauser M-1899 rifles (M-99/07 maybe) Here is photo of original Serbian M-1899 rifle with Simson&Co made bayonet. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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