The 16th Battalion of the London Regiment

[hedleywilliams]

Having recently pulled the medal records of my Grandfather, Pte Geoffrey B Nathan who is identified as being part of the 16th Battalion of the London Regiment under Regiment Number 554016

I am just starting to research the movements and activities of the 16th who I assume were also known as the Queens Westminster Rifles.

I would appreciate any help on how to interpret the Regiment Number, information on movements, whether anyone has the Diary....

thanks as always to a great site

Hedley Williams

Grandson of

Alfred John Williams 19th London Regiment

Geoffrey Brian Nathan 16th London Regiment

[HERITAGE PLUS]

This from the mother site will give you a good starter.

http://www.1914-1918.net/london.htm

and this will give some more background history.

http://regiments.org/regiments/uk/volmil-l...vinf/London.htm

Dave

[Charles Fair]

Hedley,

If he was in the 1/16th there is rather useful battalion history, first published in 1923: The War History of the First Battalion Queen's Westminster Rifles 1914-1918 by Maj J.Q. Henriques

Fortunately it is available as a reprint from naval & military press here. A mere £22 makes it somewhat more affordable than the original edition, though the quality of reproduction of the photos wont be as good. (I have no connection with N&MP other than as a customer.)

I dont think that a history of the 2/16th was ever published.

regards

Charles

[hedleywilliams]

Charles..

Great to hear from you, I will certainly purchase the book, I assume at some point I will establish whether or not Geoffrey was with the 1/16 or 2/16.

I am assuming that it was the 1/16 as my Uncle recalled that Geoffrey had served with the Kings Royal Rifle Corps which I think would be logical given that the 1/16 combined with the KRRC in 1916

As always I appreciate your help

Hedley

[Charles Fair]

I assume at some point I will establish whether or not Geoffrey was with the 1/16 or 2/16.

I am assuming that it was the 1/16 as my Uncle recalled that Geoffrey had served with the Kings Royal Rifle Corps which I think would be logical given that the 1/16 combined with the KRRC in 1916

Hedley,

Presumably you have downloaded his Medal Index Card i.e.:

Medal card of Nathan, Geoffrey B

Corps Regiment No Rank

London Regiment 554016 Private

Be aware that the MIC is itself only an index - the really valuable information is on the medal Roll. The notations on the MIC will point you to the correct page references. Do post the MIC here.

The 16th Londons (i.e. both 1/16th and 2/16th) were affilitiated with the KRRC in 1916. They didnt merge with as such, but it was more a sort of attachment for administrative reasons, and which would have shown up in drafts between the KRRC and 16th Londons.

The same thing happened with the 19th and 7th Londons who were both affiliated with the Middlesex Regt. I have found many 19th London men with 6 digit numbers who served with the Middx (whilst still keeping their 19th London number) but who did not serve overseas with the 19th. Conversely, I have found several hundred Middlesex Regt men who were attached to the 19th Londons who never served overseas with the Middx, yet who kept their Middx number.

I would tend to assume nothing until you have seen the Roll. He could have enlisted in the 16th Londons, but have been posted to the KRRC overseas, never actually serving overseas with the 16th. Alternatively he could have served overseas with either 1/16th or 2/16th, been wounded and sent back to the UK, then posted to the 3/16th whilst recuperating, and then posted to a bn of the KRRC with a draft from the 3/16th. There are doubtless other possibilities.

The 1/16th were on the W Front throughout. The 2/16th were with 60 Div until c. July 1918, so its movements were France c. 24 June 16 to c 25 Nov 16, Salonika c. 1 Dec 1916 to early June 1917, then Egypt & Palestine from early June 1917 onwards. Any clues from family stories which would point to one or the other?

If he appears on the 16th London Roll then that will show whether he was 1/16th or 2/16th, which theatre(s) he served in, and his dates overseas, and whether he served overseas with a bn of the KRRC. (He could appear on the KRRC roll, but the card should confirm that for you. I havent looked at the KRRC rolls so cant comment on how much info they hold.)

If the 2/16th then you should be able to get a pretty good idea of its movements from the 60 Division History by Col Dalbiac. (N&MP may have this as reprint too.)

[hedleywilliams]

Hi Charles

Geoffrey Nathan's Medal Card reads as follows

Name : NATHAN Geoffrey B

Corps : 16 Lond R

Rank : Pte

Regiment Number : 554016

Medal

Victory : TP16/101 B/3 Page 312

British : -do- , -do-

What we do know, about my Grandfather....we believe that he was attached very early on to the KRRC, he took great pride in his marksmanship, but we know that he was a "wireman" for communications, with the usual stories of wandering into the wrong trench etc !.

At some point he was gassed and likely returned to Britain and he was part of the retreat from Arras.

We do not know where his original medals are located.

As always Charles your help and input is amazing

Hedley

[Guest sis]

Hello,

I've been researching two brothers in teh QWR.

Rifleman GEORGE RICHARDS

3769, "B" Coy. 1st/16th Bn., London Regt (Queen's Westminster Rifles)

who died age 20

on 30 October 1915

Rifleman RICHARDS,

Remembered with honour

LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY

and the Second is;

Lance Corporal THOMAS S. RICHARDS

3774 and later 551214, 1st/16th Bn., London Regt (Queen's Westminster Rifles)

who died

on 14 April 1917

Lance Corporal RICHARDS

Remembered with honour

ARRAS MEMORIAL

And I have learnt that there was another brother, Frank Richards who became L/Sargeant.

This is what I have gleaned so far, but you will understand that I have been concentrating on these particular dates and places. I do recommend you join GREATWAR-L@rootsweb.com, where I have got most of my info. I appologize for the length of it all.

I'd be very grateful if you had any info of the two dates above in your Henriques book..

I'll sign off here and leave you to it!

Sis

The 1/16th Queen's Westminster Rifles were involved in the Battle of Arras on 14th April 1917. At 5.30am on the 14th the QWR and the Queen Victorias Rifles attacked from the Wancourt Tower Ridge with their objectives being another ridge 1,000 yards away and then the village of Cherisy. The men were exhausted having had one hour's sleep per day over the previous three days. As orders for the attack did not arrive until 11.45pm the night before, no reconnaissance of the ground had been possible nor was there time to explain what was required of the troops.

A and B Companies were the first wave with the objective of the ridge at which point C and D Companies were to pass through and take Cherisy. Just before the British barrage started, the Germans dropped a heavy barrage on the QWR trenches. At 5.30 they went over the top on a bright, spring morning. As soon as they started to descend Tower Ridge they were met by heavy machine gun fire from front and both flanks. In addition, some Germans appeared on Tower Ridge in the left rear of the lead companies (Tower Ridge was not wholly occupied with parts still in German hands). British artillery were unable to supress the German MG fire.

The majority of officers were quickly killed or wounded but the men pressed on to some trenches 500 yards down the slope. By this time the first wave was nearly wiped out and only the arrival of the second wave allowed them to hold this position. By 6.30 am the attack was at a standstill and a counter attack was beaten off by Lewis gun and rifle fire. Contact was lost with battalion HQ on the Tower Ridge and, to add to their problem, there was a gap on their left flank which left it exposed. Units of the 151st Brigade that were supposed to fill the gap lost their way and ended up supporting the QVR to the right.

By 6.50 the left company of the QWRs had been overrun and the Germans were working their way round the left flank of the main position. The attacks of the two flanking divisions had failed and so, by 8am, the QWRs and QVRs were in an isolated position some 600 yards in front of the main British trenches. Commanded by Lt W G Orr of C Coy they held out all day. Attempts to send messages back failed. By 9am both flanks of the QWR position had been turned and a group of Germans was seen in the rear of the QWRs. Because of the close proximity of the opposing troops it was impossible for the artillery to intervene.

At 11am Orr's position, reinforced by a few QVR and some of the 6/Durham Light Infantry, was attacked but the Germans were repulsed. Fighting now died down and orders to withdraw elements of the QWRs were sent out. Eventually, a Lt Mackle found Orr's position and sometime after 5pm they withdrew. Of the 70-80 men initially under Orr's command some 27 were left. At 9pm Battalion HQ heard that Orr had retired and Brigade HQ then ordered him back and Orr and 15 men returned to their exposed position. Men of the 168th Brigade were supposed to relieve him but they too got lost and Orr and his men were left exposed all night, only withdrawing at dawn.

The QWRs went into action with 497 men and lost 12 out of 15 officers (4 dead) and 256 other ranks (86 dead + 6 died of wounds).

There is a detailed description of this action in The War History of the 1st Battalion Queens Westminster Rifles by Maj J Q Henriques.

1/16th (County of London) Battalion TF (Queen's Westminster Rifles)

Raised August 1914 : in Kensington. Part of 4th London Brigade, 2nd London

Division. November 1914 : moved to France and joined the 18th Brigade, 6th

Division on 12 November. 10 February 1916 : transferred to 169th Brigade,

56th Division.

551214, 1st/16th Bn., London Regt (Queen's Westminster Rifles)

who died

on 14 April 1917

would have been in the 169th Brigade of 56th Division in the First Battle

of the Scarpe/Arras - known to Canadians as Vimy Ridge.

56th Division attacked towards Neuville St Vitasse on 9th April and was in

that area between Monchy and N St Vitasse on the 14th. There were large

counter-attacks at the time.

Thomas's number is significant. These six figure numbers were not issued until February 1917, and all men with existing four-digit numbers were renumbered. It is rather difficulty therefore to tell when he enlisted.

On 14 April 1917, the Westminster's were involved in an attack that had commenced a few days earlier. On 9th April, British Third Army under Allenby launched a large-scale attack in front of Arras. It was undertaken at French request, as a precursor to an even larger offensive to take place in the Aisne valley and in the Champagne. Despite conditions (the attack opened in a snowstorm), all objectives were taken on the first day, including the notable capture of Vimy Ridge by the Canadians. More units were pushed in on subsequent days, but the attack ran into increasing resistance as the enemy organised its reserves.169 Brigade relieved another Brigade of 56th Division (167) late in the afternoon of 11 April, and was ordered to consolidate positions at Hill 90 - a strong point in the enemy's Wancourt Line - and to push forward towards Heninel. Once the neighbouring 30th Division had occupied the Hindenburg Line, it would then press on across the River Cojeul.

The Brigade's attack began at 5.15am on 12 April. It was very successful. Hill 90 was captured, and patrols got into Wancourt village. 13 April was quieter. During the night the enemy blew up Wancourt Tower, being used as an observation post, which seemed to suggest that they were about to withdraw further. At 5.30am on 14 April, the attack was again started but it was reported that the Westminster's were advancing with no British troops on their left (orders not having reached the neighbouring unit). One of the battalion officers writes of the attack "dissolving" about 500 yards ahead of the start point, in some old enemy trenches. The Westminster's were hit by machine gun fire coming from Guemappe, a village that should have been under attack on the left but of course was under no pressure. The Westminster's lost 12 officers and 300 men in this attack.

Just ran a quick search for casualties in the field for the month of October, 1915 for the 16th Londons. There were 14 men lost during the month:

1st 1 kia

4th 1 kia and 1 dos (died on service)

11th 2 kia

12th 3 kia

22nd 3 kia

23rd 1 dow (died of wounds)

24th 1 dow

30th 1 dow (3769 Rfn George Richards)

As you can see from the above, the Regimental History doesn't deal much with individual casualties.

The Queen's Westminsters were a battalion of the London Regiment 1908-1918 and were known as the 16th County of London Battalion with affiliations to the King's Royal Rifle Corps (now the Royal Green Jackets).

There are two regimental museums which may be able to help you:

The Royal Green Jackets Museum, Peninsula barracks, Romsey Road, Winchester, Hants SO23 8TS. Tel: 01962.828549

Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (London) Museum, HM Tower of London, London EC3N 4AB. Tel: 020 7481 4944

There may also be records of the soldiers whose lives you are looking into at the National Archives, Ruskin Avenue, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU.

Email: Enquiry@nationalarchives.gov.uk Tel: 020 8876 3444.