Stoppage Drill Posted 7 March , 2012 Share Posted 7 March , 2012 Which pronunciation was current in WW1 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 7 March , 2012 Share Posted 7 March , 2012 Contemporary British authors write "lootenant" for the American pronunciation, as far as I recall, so I would expect the British pronunciation to be "leftenant" as it is now. If you really wanted to check, the Oxford English Dictionary staff might be able to advise. The OED has several early occurrences spelt with an f including the earliest, 1387, "leeftenaunt".http://oed.com/public/contactus/contact-us sJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Lewis Posted 7 March , 2012 Share Posted 7 March , 2012 As far as I'm aware the English/British pronunciation is and has always been "leftenant". In American English it is pronouced "lootenant". Regards Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 7 March , 2012 Share Posted 7 March , 2012 It would be interesting to know where and when the pronunciatiations diverged. Perhaps (too) much French influence on the fledgling USN in the Napoleonic Wars Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I have always thought that Lieutenant (lootenant) ie., a tenant in lieu of another as in subaltern ie., under another, or alternate makes more sense than lieutenant (left-tenant). I would have thought that the RN would have used the Lieu (loo) style in the Great War if not earlier as I cannot see senior officers changing their grammar. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 The meaning is the same either way but English has a long, long history of not being pronounced how it looks... sJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 The meaning is the same either way but English has a long, long history of not being pronounced how it looks... sJ Very true but 'english' is a composite of innumerable other languages often incorrectly pronounced or altered from the original spelling or even meaning. The language continues to evolve rapidly, now including not only other languages but also computer words as well khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I do certainly appreciate that - I used to do freelance work for the OED - but I suppose what I was trying to say, and not as clearly as I might have done, is that diverging pronunciation doesn't always produce different meanings. What was new to me, on checking lieutenant, was the appearance of the f spelling (presumably indicating pronunciation), so early in the English version. I am not certain, but would guess that it may have been the American pronunciation which diverged when Noah Webster's Dictionary was published - he rationalized (according to his lights) spelling, and it may be that he tried to rationalize pronunciation too, especially given the US/French entente in the 18th century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadsac Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Not too sure about the pronounciation in WW1, but I can give it as we used it in Naval School 1940-1952. We used Lutenant - or Luatenant, if that is written correct NOT Lootenant as in the American expression or Leftenat, which was considered to be `Army'!!! Perhaps I do not have the correct letters to express the actual saying ?? It could be a cross between ua or er - finding it difficult to spell. This was confirmed to me by Admiral (Rtd) Rufus Mckenzie during a drink in his home, also confirmed by his Lieutenant on HMS/m THRASHER Reggie Fitzgerald. Sadsac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonharley Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 According to a letter from the Permanent Secretary to the Board of Admiralty mentioned in a 1949 article in American Speech, the correct pronunciation is/was either "lɛˈtɛnənt" or "lɘ'tɛnɘnt". Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I agree with Sadsac and Simon. Definitely not "left" or "loo". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 The 1970 printing of the fifth (1969) edition of the Pocket Oxford Dictionary says 'let' in the navy, 'loo' in the USA and 'left' otherwise. The 2001 edition of the Concise Oxford Dictionary says 'left.' It gives only Received Pronunciations, omitting variation between different parts of the English speaking world. I read somewhere that the RN switched to 'left' because it became too difficult to persuade new recruits, used to hearing 'left' in war films about the British Army, to use 'let.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 8 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Thank you all. I was always taught - in the '50s - that "left" was army, "loo" was American, and Le'tenant (emphasis on the "ten" )was RN, and therefore right ! But it seems that these days the RN have adopted the English/Army pronunciation of "leftenant." I suppose that the usage common in WW1 would have been what I was taught 35 years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Thank you all. I was always taught - in the '50s - that "left" was army, "loo" was American, and Le'tenant (emphasis on the "ten" )was RN, and therefore right ! But it seems that these days the RN have adopted the English/Army pronunciation of "leftenant." I suppose that the usage common in WW1 would have been what I was taught 35 years later. Agreed. Liftenant in the army, lose the 'F' for the navy and John Wayne was a Louie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Looking in a dictionary published at the time of or very close to the Great War would give authoritative evidence of how it was pronounced at that time. My 1933 edition of the Shorter Oxford states lef- in the UK and liu- in the US. If someone can dig out an earlier one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 8 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Covey-Crump will be the definitive authority, and he published in the late '40s I think. Anybody got a copy ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Clay Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Covey-Crump will be the definitive authority, and he published in the late '40s I think. Anybody got a copy ? The interwebs is a wondrous place! I typed in Covey-Crump and got a wiki entry, which directed me to an archived page click here which gives C-C's answer to the question: L'tenant it is, he says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadsac Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Believe Simon has `pronouced' / spelt it better than I did. I just could not find a suitable spelling for the intonation of the voice - still cannot actually, but Le'tenant is about it !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonharley Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I'm still not sure how on earth to pronounce it (even though I've had that "American Speech" article I quoted from for five years now). Is it like saying "Leftenant" without the f, or saying "le tenant"? Or neither. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Well, the Australian navy was a copy cat of the RN in all things good (and bad) and it was always Lef - tenant there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I'm still not sure how on earth to pronounce it . Simon In the phonetics you gave - "either "lɛˈtɛnənt" or "lɘ'tɛnɘnt" : - ɛ is pronounced like the e in pen - ə is pronounced like the a in about [u-bowt] or the e in bitte (a sort of uh sound) and ' is showing that the sound following it is stressed. (So immediately would be i'mi:djətli) The consonants are the ones you know. Saying it aloud helps. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadsac Posted 9 March , 2012 Share Posted 9 March , 2012 Simon, David, Dragon - the nearest I can get in phonetics is LUHtenant. The Oz did copy RN speak re Lieutenant, but this came about as RN were terribly wary that the LOOtenant as `spoke' by the `Old-Colonials' would creep in. Can't have that can we !! Next thing you know they will be having us with DRY SHIPS - Ye Gods !!- perish the thought ?? Fast Forward to `Tot Commiseration Day', bloody Americans, (curse them & their DRY SHIPS which was a fore-runner), they were revolting in 1776 - and have remained so ever since !! I rest my case ! Sadus Sacus ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 9 March , 2012 Share Posted 9 March , 2012 I thought 'leftenant' was only used by Americans imitating - or caricaturing - British English. The most common pronunciation I've heard - without my being sufficiently erudite to use the phonetics described earlier with any confidence - approximates to 'l'vtenant'. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill24chev Posted 10 March , 2012 Share Posted 10 March , 2012 How do/did the RAF pronounce (Flight) Lieutenant? I should know having served with 21 Signal Regt (AS) in Germany but cant remember. Also could the different pronunciation be influenced by the fact that an army lieutenant is not the equivilent rank of Lieutenant RN or Flt. Lieutenant RAF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 10 March , 2012 Share Posted 10 March , 2012 Not too sure about the pronounciation in WW1, but I can give it as we used it in Naval School 1940-1952. We used Lutenant - or Luatenant, if that is written correct NOT Lootenant as in the American expression or Leftenat, which was considered to be `Army'!!! Perhaps I do not have the correct letters to express the actual saying ?? It could be a cross between ua or er - finding it difficult to spell. This was confirmed to me by Admiral (Rtd) Rufus Mckenzie during a drink in his home, also confirmed by his Lieutenant on HMS/m THRASHER Reggie Fitzgerald. Sadsac I don't understand ......... LOO A TENANT ? LUTT ENANT? L'TENANT? The RAF usually went along with LEFT, as befits RFC heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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