war pensions

[Arnie]

War pension are even now very difficult to obtain. Of course if you lose a limb etc it a bit easier. However when a soldier was discharged from the Army whether on normal 'demob' or invalided out he was subject to a medical.

Any thing that was noted or brought to the Medical Officers attention would be noted. Soldiers who were discharged as a result of injury during service. Would be assessed as to level of pain, incapabilities and capacity for employment. he would be awarded a pension immediately based on the percentage of incapacity.

The problem got harder applying after the war especially for complaints that could also be associated with civilian employment, like deafness in Boiler makers or bad lungs down a pit. The hardest to prove was psycological problems. Shell shock etc. It was easier if any problems had been previously been noted in the soldiers personel records or in the battalions war diary, It took years for many to get what they were intitled to, if ever

In the 1930's the government stopped or reduced many war pensions without appeal forcing many to be beg or live on charity. Yes certainly a land fit for heros.

[philary]

Hello Kate

In response to your queries. I'm afraid I don't know what a PEAT discussion means and I can't seem to be able to find out. I think his award might have been quite generous, considering he was in a mental hospital and would be for his personal needs. Others may know more. I know he suffered for the rest of his life and he never worked again. Once again family recollections are that he received a pension for life.

Hilary

[Kathie]

Following on from Kates question about what a widows pension might be (sorry dont know how to insert a quote here) I would also like to know :

1. What was a widows pension and how calculated and for how long? Was it recalculated?

2. What about dependants (not children). Most of my 20 soldiers had mothers or fathers who had been id as dependants on joining up and they received pensions after death - but not for good - the files seem to indicate an amount for a period of time and then the file notes a "Vote" and the dependant is notified again. What was going on?

3. What about children? I have another thread querying the file I found in the PRO for SAH Dell and asking for help in deciphering that file. One of the things is the childrens allowance for his daughter. She was born August 1916, he died 5th October 1917, the file records chlds allowance from 1 Ocotber 1917. Did all children get allowances or only fatherless (i.e. deceased soldiers) ones, for how long, did officers children get more than other ranks etc?

4. I have a feeling that there was tension between the amounts South aFrican Infantry received and UK forces - we received more for some reason - but the calculations on pay forms showed both and did a reconciliation to arrive at the greater amount. But that was pay. I dont know if pensions differed.

Kathie

[sandyford]

Kathie

Although my father was not married and did not have children when he was discharged, obviously he had them later, I don't think he had an allowance for them - more searching of documents necessary.

Have you seen the pages listing soldiers effects in the London Gazette? Can't give you a link to them but I have come across them in name searches.

In trying to compare wages with war pensions, I have found an entry in my mother's diary saying that my father was to get 17/6 a week in his first job after being discharged, so his pension nearly doubled that.

I don't think he ever earned more than £14 per week.

Certainly I remember that when I was starting work to earn £1,000 per year was to have made it.

Kate

[mcderms]

Widows pensions were paid for as long as they remained unmarried. These are paid for life, liable to tax and can be reviewed dependent upon circumstances. The amount varies according to numbers of children and the soldiers rank at time of death. I don't believe that other dependents were ever taken into account for WW1 or WW2 pensions.

This is why many young soldiers ran their sweethearts down the aisle as at least they'd get something if KIA.

They are also a bl**dy pittance and always have been in comparison to the loss.

[sandyford]

mcderms

I agree with you and know of a specific example of a soldier marrying just before being posted overseas in WW2. I had previously thought this was for romantic reasons.

Presumably all soldiers had to nominate NOK, and so, as Kathie has stated, in many cases in WW1 this would be parents who may have been dependent on their son's wages.

Do you mean that parents would not be eligible for anything if their son/daughter was killed?

Kate

[Kathie]

Not having endured the Blitz, all the SA records are intact - whcih makes researching a pleasure.

On our forms, soldiers filled in next of kin. Then there was a separate question as to whether any person was wholly or partially dependant and then a final question as to whom. All of mine gave parents as next of kin. Sometimes a mother or a father or both were id as partially dependant, in one case brothers and sisters too.

But I do have one soldier, in RGA, whose file after death indicates a childrens allowance - he had a wife and she applied for and got a widows pension. He was an officer - did that make a difference.

Kathie

[mcderms]

Soldiers could allocate allowances to be deducted from their pay - this commonly went to spouses and other dependents such as parents (back in the days when kids were expected to look after the folks in their dotage). Once confirmed KIA, pay was stopped and a pension could be applied for but not by other dependents. I believe that children being looked after someone other than a parent could apply for pensions but not the parents or other dependents of the soldier.

[sandyford]

Yes I have heard that part of a soldier's pay could be sent directly to his wife or parents if nominated.

On the final, final pension document I posted earlier there is a space for additional allowances for wife and/or children. This document relates to disability.

On the Final document posted there are three options for a disabled soldier

1. pension,

2. lump sum payment

3. 'gratuity'.

I had always thought gratuity was a gift or one off payment. How could gratuity be different from lump sum payment?

Kate

[philary]

Hello to everyone who has contributed to this topic!

I've just returned from the PRO and had a look at the medical board minutes for dealing with the assessment of war pensions.

Although I havve not been able to read all the files available thoroughly, the ones I perused were PIN15/11 1924-1926. (There was another set PIN15/10 1921-1924, which I didn't have time to look at.)

From my understanding these minutes were of discussions concerning the cost and effectiveness of the boards who decided pensions and there were some interesting comments. Regional boards were set up which met very frequently and usually consisted of three members, at least, including a medical specialist. (The definition of a board was discussed and was three or more people!) These gathered the applicants details and reports, made a decision and awarded a pension, relating to percentage of disability, and dependents etc. This award was reviewed yearly and after four years was given for life! (There was a great deal of debate about this, but I think it came down to the cost of the boards meeting annually to review all pensions!)

If an award was refused the applicant could appeal and another board would meet fairly quickly.

The minutes are an interesting insight into how the Ministry of Pensions were trying to be fair, accountable and also cost effective. It appears the Scottish boards were the most costly.

The one thing I gleaned which helped me was the definition of a PEAT Decision, recorded on my Great Uncle's service record. I have come to the conclusion that it means PEnsion AssessmenT Decision and refers to the boards.

The award discussions regarding applicants and their reports are closed for 100 years, once again tying in with data protection of medical records.

Hope this helps to fill in a little more of the picture. There were interesting statistical reports within these minutes, which someone may want to analyse!

Hilary

[sandyford]

Hilary

Thank you very much for going to clarify this information for us. It must be wonderful to see these documents.

What a strange way of arriving at an acronym. The first two letters of the first word and the first and last letters of the second word.

I can't think of a clever acronym for our discussion using this formula. Perhaps you can or is this asking for trouble?

Kate

[philary]

Hello Kate

Just read your reply! I'll try my hardest to think of one, sometimes it hits me straight away, other times it takes a little longer, I suppose it's my age!!!

Hilary