Scottistics

[hazelclark]

As i pointed out in another thread, the more I become involved, the more I have come to realise that data can be dragged out to "prove" just about any point of view. "Original" data turns out to be doctored or incorrectly compiled. Records were, in some cases "approximate". Men gave false names, places of birth, and goodness knows what else. I think also that you are on a sticky wicket with the name thing. In my own family alone, many of whom came from Ireland at some point, there are Clarks, Macaulays, Captains, Bruces and Foxleys.

I'm afraid this seems to me to be a profitless exercise.

Hazel

[hazelclark]

Some years ago I went to a conference on the Isle of Lewis, one speaker made a case that the Western Isles had the highest losses proportional to their population. A book was published afterwards and this says that approximately 9.500 served out of a population of 46,712 and there were losses of 1,797.

One point he made was that particularly with Barra and some other areas, a large proportion served in the Merchant Navy and many of their losses were not recognised as war casualties by the CWGC - they had to have died because of direct enemy action so deaths from exposure in a lifeboat did not count.

Island Heroes: The Military History of the Hebrides

It is interesting that you make this point about the Naval recording of casualties. While home in Scotland recently, that very point came up for discussion. Several people that i know had family members who served in the Merchant Navy and no trace can be found of them on memorials or even in ship records. (to date at any rate) Some family members seem to have no

idea what happened. I am trying to help solve one of the mysteries but have had no luck so far.

Hazel

[mbriscoe]

It is interesting that you make this point about the Naval recording of casualties. While home in Scotland recently, that very point came up for discussion. Several people that i know had family members who served in the Merchant Navy and no trace can be found of them on memorials or even in ship records. (to date at any rate) Some family members seem to have no

idea what happened. I am trying to help solve one of the mysteries but have had no luck so far.

Hazel

It was Merchant Navy rather than Royal Navy but at that time there apparently was not a large tradition of Scottish sailors in the Royal Navy because their home port would be in the South of England. It was one of the reasons for developing the base at Rosyth, to encourage Scots to join the RN.

The speaker told of having been to a meeting and on his way back when someone mentioned going to the Remembrance Day commemorations the following week. It occurred to him that there was no War Memorial for the island so he asked around. It seemed that there had been some bad feeling after WWI that relatives had not been recognised as war casualties and would not be appearing on the War Memorial so some places did not erect War Memorials.

[hazelclark]

Hazel

Ireland to Scotland isn't emigration!

Ron

You know very well that 20 miles down the road was "emigration" in those days!

Hazel

[hazelclark]

It was Merchant Navy rather than Royal Navy but at that time there apparently was not a large tradition of Scottish sailors in the Royal Navy because their home port would be in the South of England. It was one of the reasons for developing the base at Rosyth, to encourage Scots to join the RN.

The speaker told of having been to a meeting and on his way back when someone mentioned going to the Remembrance Day commemorations the following week. It occurred to him that there was no War Memorial for the island so he asked around. It seemed that there had been some bad feeling after WWI that relatives had not been recognised as war casualties and would not be appearing on the War Memorial so some places did not erect War Memorials.

It certainly makes sense. Although I knew that merchant seamen were not given the recognition that R.N. men received during and after the wars, I had no idea until I went to Cromarty that there is still ill feeling about the lack of Memorials. Being fishermen, many Cromarty men joined the Merchant Navy just like the Islanders. I remember that my uncle, who was a RCNVR officer during the second war on the North Atlantic run, said that the merchant seamen had a dreadful time. Not only were they constantly at risk from u boats, but they carried very dangerous cargoes so that when they were torpedoed it was game over. Not only that, but their pay was stopped from the time of sinking and all they could do was go back to sea on the next ship. I can't think that WW1 was any better.

Hazel

[Murrough]

2,723 men born in Ireland died whilst serving in Scottish battalions. 2.06% of All Scottish Casualties and 2.95% of those whose place of birth is known. This might suggest that the propensity for expatriate Irishmen living in Scotland to join was actually quite low. This of course will not capture men of Irish descent born in Scotland, but it is difficult to accurately identify this group as the data 'assumes' they are Scottish, and they would be subject to conscription.

Irish expatriates living and working in Scotland were probably more likely to join Irish regiments.

[Graham Stewart]

Whatever your point of view Martin has to be commended for such a study, which brings into doubt statistics, that have been repeated time after time and which to my mind should be corrected. The study itself is not to bring into question the valour of the Scots - nor indeed that of the Welsh, Irish, English and our Dominion compatriots, but to simply to show that without detailed study, what is often written, even by more distinguished individuals than ourselves, is not always in reality the 'truth'.

Many years ago I did a similar study related to the Northumberland Fusiliers prior to the Great War to determine, just how 'Northumbrian', they were and I too have to confess that the sad fact is that there were more men serving from the Home Counties than there were men from Northumberland in the Regiment and that it's near neighbour County Durham provided more men than were home born.

What got me into the study, was that as a collector of all things N.F., I had accumulated a large collection of Regimental Journals and within them there was the equivalent of a War Diary, written during peacetime and known as a 'Digest of Service' and each regular Battalion used to keep one. Within the Digest, you would find 'statistics' regarding the Regiments make up and especially where the men came from - County by County for England - and then by Nationality - Scots, Irish, Welsh and others. These 'facts' presented by the Regiment itself were an eye-opener for me, as I too had been fed on a diet of 'pure Geordieness' regarding the Regiment.

The answer to the question as to "why so many none-Northumbrians?" was infact simple - Northumberland was a vast Rural county with only a small portion of it was industrialised and that was based around Newcastle and the River Tyne, where the bulk of it's population lay. Northumberland in itself can be looked upon as a 'mini Scotland, due to it's geographical nature and those located in the industrial areas with paid work were unlikely to take up soldiering. Pre-war soldiering itself was dependant on one type of occupation from it's recruits and that was 'Labourer.

The reality was - it was only the advent of the Great War that saw the Regiment, become the 'Northumberland' Fusiliers and even then Durham, as always played a huge role in what became the 'Line' Regiment with the greatest numbers of Battalions ever raised for wartime service. However it was not to last - 1916 saw to that and although men continued to come in from Northumberland, you were just as likely to come from somewhere else within Northern Command to keep the Regiments Battalions fed and towards the end of the war, just about anywhere.

That should be the end of the storey, however there is always a 'twist' to something and in this case, the 'twist', was that during post-Great War and the Depression Years that the Regiment did infact once again take on it's true 'Geordie' character, this was born out by the names and places recruits came from and by the time of it's amalgamation in 1968, you had to have a serving family member within the Regiment to stand any chance of becoming a 'Royal Northumberland Fusilier'.

So Martin if you get the chance see if Scottish Regimental Museums have copies of "Digest of Service" for each Battalion, as I would be curious to know if they included statistics of how the regiments were made up.

[hazelclark]

You can certainly see how the Regiments were made up pre-1914 by looking at the 1911 Census. If you look for instance at the 1st Seaforth in India, the rank and file were largely Scottish although the officers who were not English were mainly Lowlanders. The dynamics of the Regiments changed with their makeup as the war progressed.

Hazel

[Guest]

Irish expatriates living and working in Scotland were probably more likely to join Irish regiments.

The data certainly supports that view. MG

[Guest]

Whatever your point of view Martin has to be commended for such a study, which brings into doubt statistics, that have been repeated time after time and which to my mind should be corrected. The study itself is not to bring into question the valour of the Scots - nor indeed that of the Welsh, Irish, English and our Dominion compatriots, but to simply to show that without detailed study, what is often written, even by more distinguished individuals than ourselves, is not always in reality the 'truth'.

Many years ago I did a similar study related to the Northumberland Fusiliers prior to the Great War to determine, just how 'Northumbrian', they were and I too have to confess that the sad fact is that there were more men serving from the Home Counties than there were men from Northumberland in the Regiment and that it's near neighbour County Durham provided more men than were home born.

What got me into the study, was that as a collector of all things N.F., I had accumulated a large collection of Regimental Journals and within them there was the equivalent of a War Diary, written during peacetime and known as a 'Digest of Service' and each regular Battalion used to keep one. Within the Digest, you would find 'statistics' regarding the Regiments make up and especially where the men came from - County by County for England - and then by Nationality - Scots, Irish, Welsh and others. These 'facts' presented by the Regiment itself were an eye-opener for me, as I too had been fed on a diet of 'pure Geordieness' regarding the Regiment.

The answer to the question as to "why so many none-Northumbrians?" was infact simple - Northumberland was a vast Rural county with only a small portion of it was industrialised and that was based around Newcastle and the River Tyne, where the bulk of it's population lay. Northumberland in itself can be looked upon as a 'mini Scotland, due to it's geographical nature and those located in the industrial areas with paid work were unlikely to take up soldiering. Pre-war soldiering itself was dependant on one type of occupation from it's recruits and that was 'Labourer.

The reality was - it was only the advent of the Great War that saw the Regiment, become the 'Northumberland' Fusiliers and even then Durham, as always played a huge role in what became the 'Line' Regiment with the greatest numbers of Battalions ever raised for wartime service. However it was not to last - 1916 saw to that and although men continued to come in from Northumberland, you were just as likely to come from somewhere else within Northern Command to keep the Regiments Battalions fed and towards the end of the war, just about anywhere.

That should be the end of the storey, however there is always a 'twist' to something and in this case, the 'twist', was that during post-Great War and the Depression Years that the Regiment did infact once again take on it's true 'Geordie' character, this was born out by the names and places recruits came from and by the time of it's amalgamation in 1968, you had to have a serving family member within the Regiment to stand any chance of becoming a 'Royal Northumberland Fusilier'.

So Martin if you get the chance see if Scottish Regimental Museums have copies of "Digest of Service" for each Battalion, as I would be curious to know if they included statistics of how the regiments were made up.

Graham

Very interesting. Thank you. Can I ask did your study look across all battalions or was it confined to Regular Battalions?

The 1911 Census provides some interesting data on the breakdown of Regular Battalions' enlisted men's birthplace. I have waded through a number of Country regiments and few Regiments had a very large minority of men coming from outside their home county.

As you doubtless know, some rural County Regiments were permitted to recruit in some of the industrial towns outside of their defined home recruiting conties.

My sense is that after conscription came in the Army could do almost anything with recruits. Even before conscription there are examples of large blocks of men being transferred between regiments. The asymmetry between population density and recruiting areas very quickly showed through.

[Graham Stewart]

Graham

Very interesting. Thank you. Can I ask did your study look across all battalions or was it confined to Regular Battalions?

The 1911 Census provides some interesting data on the breakdown of Regular Battalions' enlisted men's birthplace. I have waded through a number of Country regiments and few Regiments had a very large minority of men coming from outside their home county.

As you doubtless know, some rural County Regiments were permitted to recruit in some of the industrial towns outside of their defined home recruiting conties.

My sense is that after conscription came in the Army could do almost anything with recruits. Even before conscription there are examples of large blocks of men being transferred between regiments. The asymmetry between population density and recruiting areas very quickly showed through.

It was the regular battalions that got me started and then I looked across the all of the Battalions for the Great War, using SDGW, which is a primary source regarding place of birth. As with all Counties throughout the UK, the initial intake would have been the Regular Reservists, who in the case of the N.F. came from all over the Country to rejoin, this was followed by the Special Reserve, who in general were Northumbrians, as was the Territorials, with the City Battalions having a small number of men from South of the Tyne.

The raw recruits were from both sides of the Tyne, as it was a combined 5th/68th Depot at Fenham Barracks,Newcastle, with a slightly higher number from North of the Tyne, but both the Tyneside Scottish and Irish had strong Durham elements, with a contingent coming from Liverpool into one of the Irish Battalions. There were certainly more Irish in the Tyneside Irish than Scots in the Tyneside Scottish. Recruitment on a local scale continued right up until the end of 1915 and such was the recruiting power in the North East, that the R.Inniskilling Fusiliers, Gloucestershire Regt, Worcestershire Regt and the Royal Naval Division came for recruits.

More importantly - this is where the 'Scottishness' of Scottish Regiments fails - in the Durham County T.F.A. Minute Books is a letter dated around 1915 from a Highland T.F.A., asking if it could possibly 'recruit' in County Durham - a County which unlike Northumberland was heavily industrialised and with a population that was almost twice that of Northumberland. Coal, Iron, Steel shipbuilding and their associated industries pre-dominated in that small County. The request was from this Highland Association was 'naturally' turned down.

1915 was the crunch year for recruiting and the most badly effected were the Territorials - even in the case of Northumberland, there was a newspaper article clearly stating that if 'recruits' didn't come forward, it would be the 1930's before all of the Battalions were up to 'establishment'.

Personally I don't think even Scottish regiments were immune from manpower shortages and even by 1915 they were looking further-a-field and more towards England for it's recruits.

Again looking at the 1911 Census Returns and Scots units, it would be interesting to see what it was like throughout, rather than just one unit.

[Guest]

It was the regular battalions that got me started and then I looked across the all of the Battalions for the Great War, using SDGW, which is a primary source regarding place of birth. As with all Counties throughout the UK, the initial intake would have been the Regular Reservists, who in the case of the N.F. came from all over the Country to rejoin, this was followed by the Special Reserve, who in general were Northumbrians, as was the Territorials, with the City Battalions having a small number of men from South of the Tyne.

The raw recruits were from both sides of the Tyne, as it was a combined 5th/68th Depot at Fenham Barracks,Newcastle, with a slightly higher number from North of the Tyne, but both the Tyneside Scottish and Irish had strong Durham elements, with a contingent coming from Liverpool into one of the Irish Battalions. There were certainly more Irish in the Tyneside Irish than Scots in the Tyneside Scottish. Recruitment on a local scale continued right up until the end of 1915 and such was the recruiting power in the North East, that the R.Inniskilling Fusiliers, Gloucestershire Regt, Worcestershire Regt and the Royal Naval Division came for recruits.

More importantly - this is where the 'Scottishness' of Scottish Regiments fails - in the Durham County T.F.A. Minute Books is a letter dated around 1915 from a Highland T.F.A., asking if it could possibly 'recruit' in County Durham - a County which unlike Northumberland was heavily industrialised and with a population that was almost twice that of Northumberland. Coal, Iron, Steel shipbuilding and their associated industries pre-dominated in that small County. The request was from this Highland Association was 'naturally' turned down.

1915 was the crunch year for recruiting and the most badly effected were the Territorials - even in the case of Northumberland, there was a newspaper article clearly stating that if 'recruits' didn't come forward, it would be the 1930's before all of the Battalions were up to 'establishment'.

Personally I don't think even Scottish regiments were immune from manpower shortages and even by 1915 they were looking further-a-field and more towards England for it's recruits.

Again looking at the 1911 Census Returns and Scots units, it would be interesting to see what it was like throughout, rather than just one unit.

Graham - this certainly correlates well with my findings.

In 1911 the Scottish Regular battalions were predominantly Scottish as the Irish Battalions were Irish, but rather like English Regiments recruiting fro all over England I suspect they recruited from all over Scotland and Ireland. I have seen data from one of our GWF colleagues with Highland regiment interest that shows some of the highland regiments and battalions maintain very high proportions of Scots in their ranks throughout the whole war. Some regiments and Battalions were better placed than others.

I also think one of the other swing factors is the raising of the Kitchener battalions. The initial fervour created lots of battalions but also created future manning problems: As casualties grew it became increasingly difficult for some Regiments to sustain manning levels We see a variety of responses: a number of battalions amalgamate - particularly in Scottish formations - or battalions disbanded in the case of many Irish battalions with the surplus men transferred to sister battalions. Both these methods allowed the Scottish and Irish units to maintain national identities, but in many cases it was not enough.

PS. Parents live in Darlington and I always wondered why the war raised battalion was a Northumberland Fusilier battalion. Until your post I have always (wrongly) thought that Northumberland was more densely populated than Co Durham. MG

[Graham Stewart]

Graham - this certainly correlates well with my findings.

In 1911 the Scottish Regular battalions were predominantly Scottish as the Irish Battalions were Irish, but rather like English Regiments recruiting fro all over England I suspect they recruited from all over Scotland and Ireland. I have seen data from one of our GWF colleagues with Highland regiment interest that shows some of the highland regiments and battalions maintain very high proportions of Scots in their ranks throughout the whole war. Some regiments and Battalions were better placed than others.

I also think one of the other swing factors is the raising of the Kitchener battalions. The initial fervour created lots of battalions but also created future manning problems: As casualties grew it became increasingly difficult for some Regiments to sustain manning levels We see a variety of responses: a number of battalions amalgamate - particularly in Scottish formations - or battalions disbanded in the case of many Irish battalions with the surplus men transferred to sister battalions. Both these methods allowed the Scottish and Irish units to maintain national identities, but in many cases it was not enough.

PS. Parents live in Darlington and I always wondered why the war raised battalion was a Northumberland Fusilier battalion. Until your post I have always (wrongly) thought that Northumberland was ore densely populated than Co Durham. MG

What a coincidence - I live on Barnes Rd, Mowden Park, Darlington.

In studies by military historians - the 'Regiment' tends be the "be all and end all" and the County names they are given or associated with, blur our vision of the UK as it was at the turn of the last Century. Very few, if any look at the County as a whole and especially it's population factors and that in itself is important when looking at your Regiment - the coalfield of Durham was 'King', there was no other coalfield within the UK the size of Durhams, with the number of collieries/drift mines and men it employed, which if I remember correctly was over 300 - Northumberland had half as many again. Sunderland itself was one of the biggest ship building centres in the UK, possibly out stripping Glasgow and Liverpool - it certainly exceeded that of the North Tyne.

Returning to the subject of 'Scottishness' - I seem to remember that Hartlepool sent a large contingent of lads to the Royal Scots in 1914/15 - this was in the local newspapers.

[Graham Stewart]

Have done a survey of my Northumberland Fusiliers database looking at Scots born, who were original members of the Tyneside Scottish and this is what I have to-date

1st Tyneside Scottish - 32

2nd Tyneside Scottish - 7

3rd Tyneside Scottish - 17

4th Tyneside Scottish - 22

Reserve Bn,T.S. - 2

It's by no means conclusive, it's only those who I can find with a given 'birth' place.

[Guest]

This might help.......

[IRC Kevin]

Has anyone ever looked at the percentages of Scots recruits joining the infantry, compared to the percentage of say, English recruits going to infantry? (or any other such comparison based on the ethnic origin) Merely curious, as I would expect if one particular group had a much higher proportion going into the PBI, then the percentage of their casualties ought to be higher as a result.

[Murrough]

Thanks for the chart Martin.Could you put up the religious denomination figures as well.

Regards,

M.

[Guest]

Murrough - in order to fool the system and get 3 photos in excess of the limits I had to redo the post... here are all three tables...

Here is the historical data from 1913 which will be a good proxy for the Army in 1914. MG

To save you the calcs, Scots born as a % of total

Foot Guards.........13.0%..........note 2 of the 10 Foot Guards battalions were Scottish = 20% which might suggest the Scottish Battalions were not as Scottish as we might expect

Line Infantry..........9.64% ........note 20 of the 148 Line Inf battalions were Scottish = 13.5% ... ditto....

ASC......................9.52%

RAMC...................7.54%

Line Cavalry.........6.30%

The rest are statistically too small to have any meaning. Overall Scots born as a per cent of the Army was 7.57%. This had declined from 8.00% in 1905. So the Scots were well represented in the Foot Guards, Line Infantry and ASC but ironically not enough Scots born to fill the Scottish Line Infantry ranks. This might be partly explained by the shortfalls in manning.

..

[Guest]

Has anyone ever looked at the percentages of Scots recruits joining the infantry, compared to the percentage of say, English recruits going to infantry? (or any other such comparison based on the ethnic origin) Merely curious, as I would expect if one particular group had a much higher proportion going into the PBI, then the percentage of their casualties ought to be higher as a result.

An interesting question. I have redone my original response in order to accommodate Murrough's request for the Religious table. What really surprised me is that there were not enough Scots born men in the Line Infantry to fill the the Scottish Battalions. An overseas battalion would be 950 ORs and a Home based battalion would be 750 ORs making a paired battalion Regiment 1700 ORs establishment. Multiplied by 10 Scottish Regiments gives us a requirement of 17,000 against strength of 12,623... so the Scottish Regiments were on average 25.7% undermanned in 1913.

By comparison the 106 English Line Infantry battalions (48 Regiments but some had 4 battalions) would need 90,100 men against a reported strength of 101,389. This perhaps suggest rather a large number of Englishmen were serving in Scots or Welsh battalions. Here are the others:

16 Irish battalions required 13,600 men against reported Irish born Line Infantry enlisted of 13,289

6 Welsh battalions required 5,100 men against reported Welsh born Line Infantry enlisted of 1,745

This is quite a rough calc as some of the Overseas stations required less than 950 ORs (Malta, Gib, West Indies etc) however it wont be far off. I realise the 'shortages' are intentional as Reservists would make up the difference, but it is interesting to note that there were enough enlisted Englishmen to man (in theory) 106 English battalions.

Quite interesting. MG

Edit: For ref

148 Line Infantry Battalions

106 English

20 Scottish

16 Irish

6 Welsh

[Murrough]

Thanks Martin, it makes for interesting reading.

[WilliamRev]

Martin's Scottish statistics are interesting. But looking at the Royal Scots Fusiliers (Martin has 72.5% of men who died were Scottish-born), we find, taking Soldiers Died as a representative cross-section, that in the two Regular Army battalions, (the 1st and 2nd), men were between a third and two-fifths English-born, whilst the Territorial battalions (the 4th and 5th, later 4/5th) were far more Scotland-born - perhaps 90%, and the New Army Battalions (6th, 7th, later 6/7th, 8th 12th) around four fifths Scotland-born. We know that towards the end of the war drafts were rather randomly allocated to battalions, so that a man from Sussex may well find himself in a Scottish regiment, but even so the New Army battalions of the RSF were around 80% Scottish-born. There is a smattering of Irish in all battalions, and just one or two Welshmen in the Regulars (none in the Territorials that I have spotted).

My point is that, at least as far as Scottish regiments are concerned, we are dealing with regiments which have battalions in three very different forces in the Regular, Territorial and New Armies, each of which had its own character even at the end of the war. It isn't useful to generalise and say that a particular regiment had this or that percentage of men who were Scots-born or English-born.

William

[Guest]

Martin's Scottish statistics are interesting. But looking at the Royal Scots Fusiliers (Martin has 72.5% of men who died were Scottish-born), we find, taking Soldiers Died as a representative cross-section, that in the two Regular Army battalions, (the 1st and 2nd), men were between a third and two-fifths English-born, whilst the Territorial battalions (the 4th and 5th, later 4/5th) were far more Scotland-born - perhaps 90%, and the New Army Battalions (6th, 7th, later 6/7th, 8th 12th) around four fifths Scotland-born. We know that towards the end of the war drafts were rather randomly allocated to battalions, so that a man from Sussex may well find himself in a Scottish regiment, but even so the New Army battalions of the RSF were around 80% Scottish-born. There is a smattering of Irish in all battalions, and just one or two Welshmen in the Regulars (none in the Territorials that I have spotted).

My point is that, at least as far as Scottish regiments are concerned, we are dealing with regiments which have battalions in three very different forces in the Regular, Territorial and New Armies, each of which had its own character even at the end of the war. It isn't useful to generalise and say that a particular regiment had this or that percentage of men who were Scots-born or English-born.

William

William

I can split the data down by Battalion and what you describe is fairly typical across all battalions. It should be no surprise that TF battalions were tilted towards their 'home' populations as they were very restricted in their initial recruiting areas. It would be fairer to say the Regimental stats are what they are but they do mask underlying differentials across Regular, Reserve, TF and New Army.

The patterns shift over the four plus years of the war too. Of all the 'national' Regiments the highland regiments did the best job of prsereving their national characteristics.

[Gibbo]

Last month I attended a talk by Hew Strachan and John Hughes-Wilson on Remembering the Great War at 'Aye Write', the Glasgow book festival. The subject of the allegedly high Scottish casualties in WWI was brought up by a rather aggressive questioner, who was in no doubt that the claim was accurate.

Hew Strachan replied that Scottish casualties were probably higher than the UK average, but not twice as high. He noted that the proportion of Scots who served was about the same as the UK average, maybe a little higher, but that Scots served for longer. There were proportionately more Scottish volunteers early in the war, but fewer conscripts later, because there were more Scots working in coal mines or heavy industry. He thought that the error probably results from the inclusion of Scottish expatriates on the Scottish National War Memorial.

John Hughes-Wilson made the same point made by Phil (PJA) earlier in this thread, that there may be an assumption that the high Scottish casualties suffered at Loos in 1915 continued throughout the war.

[phil andrade]

Thanks for citing that endorsement of my suggestion, Gibbo.

In another post that I made earlier I noted that recorded loss of life in armies in the last two centuries has sometimes exceeded 25% ; but that this was attended by ravages of disease . I cannot cite one example - with the possible exception of Paraguay in the 1860s - of a nation losing that proportion of its military manpower actually killed in battle : not even the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany in the Second World War. Twenty per cent was about as bad as it got when it came to men killed in action....the higher figures we see are the result of deaths by disease or while prisoners of war, which account for the huge losses suffered by Serbia and Romania and Turkey in the Great War.

In the British army 1914-1918 nearly nine tenths of all deaths were men killed in battle. This differentiated that conflict from previous experience.

There is no way that this could be reconciled with a loss of the magnitude that Niall Ferguson attributes to Scotland 1914-1918, unless we are to accept that Scottish soldiers were as afflicted by fatal diseases as were their Serbian, Romanian or Ottoman counterparts.

Phil (PJA)

[barrieduncan]

I'm hopeless at statistics and tend to steer clear of them, so apologies if this isn't presented very clearly. I was very surprised when I went through the 1911 census returns for the 1st Battalion The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). 817 men listed, of whom 255 were born in Scotland. 509 were born in England. 36 were Irish-born and only 4 were born in Wales. The remainder were born in India, Malta, New Zealand, South Africa...and lets not forget the chap born in Brazil.

There were 32 officers with the Battalion, 10 of whom were born in Scotland and 18 born in England. 109 WOs and NCOs; 22 born in Scotland, 73 born in England, and 7 born in Ireland (nearly 20% of Irish-born were NCOs).

I'll get round to the 2nd Battalion at some point, but I was fairly surprised at just how few Scots-born there were in the 1st Battalion, with my atrocious maths I make it to be around 31%.