gordon92 Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 A thread on this topic http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=174294 was started earlier this year by Grumpy on the Miscellaneous board where he asked for a guide to sporrans, and I will assume there is still interest in this. There are some good, yet fragmentary, responses in the original thread. As this is a project that interests me, I thought I would take it on; after all, I may learn something more through a more systematic examination of the photographic evidence. I moved it over here where it might get more play. I would be pleased to do this for the Scottish line infantry regiments; I will start with the Highland regiments (BW, HLI, Seaforth, Gordons, Camerons, A&SH) and then the pipers of the Lowland regiments (RS, RSF, KOSB, Cameronians/SR). I do not collect photos of the Scots Guards, London Scottish, or Liverpool Scottish. Would anyone else who has an interest in these units care to look at their sporrans? Anybody for the purse sporrans of the Irish regiments' pipers? The Tyneside Scottish wore trews, and I believe so did their pipers; but I could be wrong about that. The regular battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers had a piper or two in their military bands, but they too wore trousers. I will do a regiment of the Scottish line infantry each day or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 5 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 June , 2012 The Black Watch: This is one one of the more simple cases as there were but three patterns of sporrans common to both battalions. Worn by ORs, sergeants pre-1903, bandsmen Worn by officers in full dress review order & various undress orders, pipers, drum major, Sergeants from 1903 Worn by officers in levee dress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 5 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Highland Light Infantry: The 71st discarded the kilt and went into trousers in 1808 upon being assigned the light infantry role. In 1834 they adopted tartan trousers and trews. In 1948 the kilt was regained. Perhaps because of the trews and their allocation of a depot in Hamilton through the 1881 reforms, the HLI have been mistaken by some as a Lowland regiment. In fact, the HLI never lost its Highland status. Worn by pipers of both battalions and the pipe major of the 1st Bn. Worn by pipe major of 2nd Bn. 6th (City of Glasgow) Bn TF, 1st Bn 1948-1952 including bandsmen. The 9th (Glasgow Highland) Bn TF wore sporrans and uniforms almost identical to the Black Watch except for the red hackle until 1948. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Excellent idea for a thread. London Scottish Private; two white tassels on a black sporran. Edit: Should read Black Tassels (Thanks for highlighting error to 4thGordons) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Excellent idea for a thread. London Scottish Private; two white tassels on a black sporran. White? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 5 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Excellent idea for a thread. London Scottish Private; two white tassels on a black sporran. Suddery, did London Scottish officers wear the same pattern sporran? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 White? Er... my error. Black of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 Suddery, did London Scottish officers wear the same pattern sporran? Yes, as did Drum Major. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 That is a massive hi-jack of a thread, sir, but your intentions are good and I shall go with the flow, as it were. One quote: The 71st discarded the kilt and went into trousers in 1808 upon being assigned the light infantry role. In 1834 they adopted tartan trousers and trews. Why the distinction: do you agree trews were with one outside leg seam only, originally and primarily for riding, cut tight, and trousers had one outer and one inner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 6 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2012 That is a massive hi-jack of a thread, sir, but your intentions are good and I shall go with the flow, as it were. One quote: The 71st discarded the kilt and went into trousers in 1808 upon being assigned the light infantry role. In 1834 they adopted tartan trousers and trews. Why the distinction: do you agree trews were with one outside leg seam only, originally and primarily for riding, cut tight, and trousers had one outer and one inner? No offense intended in "hi-jacking" the thread. Regarding trews versus trousers: Your statments are correct. Further, trews are strapped underneath the boot while trousers are unsecured at the bottoms. Those Scottish regiments who sometimes wore short spats would have done so with tartan trousers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 Er... my error. Black of course. Actually black tassels on dark brown, eg: http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWI-Vintage-LONDON-SCOTTISH-REGIMENT-Sporran-4-Kilt-/380425795573?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item589324f7f5 Why the distinction: do you agree trews were with one outside leg seam only, originally and primarily for riding, cut tight, and trousers had one outer and one inner? I always understood trews were made with the one seem at the back of the leg so that it did not interfere with the pattern of the tartan visible at the front and sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 6 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2012 Actually black tassels on dark brown, eg: http://www.ebay.com/...=item589324f7f5 I always understood trews were made with the one seem at the back of the leg so that it did not interfere with the pattern of the tartan visible at the front and sides. I just looked at a pair of Cameron trews. The seams are are on the inside of each leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 I'm afraid you are wrong. The TS didn't wear trews and the pipers wore kilts. 1st TS wore Shepherd's Tartan Sporrans had two white tassels 2nd TS wore Campbell of Loundon tartan 3rd TS not sure 4th TS as for 2nd TS Sporran two white tassels. regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 6 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2012 I'm afraid you are wrong. The TS didn't wear trews and the pipers wore kilts. 1st TS wore Shepherd's Tartan Sporrans had two white tassels 2nd TS wore Campbell of Loundon tartan 3rd TS not sure 4th TS as for 2nd TS Sporran two white tassels. regards John Thank you, Tyneside Chinaman, for correcting a grave misapprehension on my part. That is a great image of the 1TS piper you posted. As you may know, the pipers of the 4th (Border) Bn King's Own Scottish Borderers also wore the Shepherd's tartan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 6 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2012 Seaforth Highlanders: The Seaforth sporrans' lineup is more complex and convoluted because of battalion distinctions some of which originated pre-1881 before the amalgamation of the 72nd (non-kilted) and 78th under the Childers reforms. (The original plan was to pair the 72nd with the 91st and the 71st with the 78th. But all of that had to be redone when Queen Victoria intervened to prevent her 79th Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders from amalgamating with the 42nd, a proposition that was also rejected by the Camerons who were unwilling to wear the 42nd tartan.) I will have to spread this across several messages because of the 100K limitation. Worn by ORs both Bns, bandsmen 1st Bn only Worn by Sgts & drum majors both Bns, bandsmen 2nd Bn only, pipe major & pipers 1st Bn only Worn by officers in undress orders and some orders of full dress (e.g., guard mounting order) continued in next message Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 6 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2012 Seaforth Highlanders (continued) Worn by officers in full dress review order & levee dress Worn by 2nd Bn pipers Worn by 2nd Bn pipe major continued in next message Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 6 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2012 Seaforth Highlanders (continued) 5th (Sutherland & Caithness) Bn TF, worn by ORs and Sgts (2 tassels) 5th Bn, worn by officers (3 tassels) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 7 June , 2012 Share Posted 7 June , 2012 post 15 the sergeant is BAND sergeant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 7 June , 2012 Share Posted 7 June , 2012 " Worn by 2nd Bn pipers " Post 16 Fascinated by the head-wear, never come across this before. Looks like a cross between a slouch hat and a tropical helmet can you elucidate please ? (Thanks for some wonderful images. Despite my roots I'm ashamed to say I do tend to struggle differentiating between Scottish regiments, especially where varying battalion traditions are maintained, and this is all very helpful). Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 7 June , 2012 Share Posted 7 June , 2012 Possibly of interest to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 7 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 June , 2012 post 15 the sergeant is BAND sergeant. Indeed the image is of a Band Sergeant. He wears the same sporran common to all sergeants in the Seaforth Highlanders. The cantle is similar to an officer's sporran but without the battle honours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 7 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 June , 2012 " Worn by 2nd Bn pipers " Post 16 Fascinated by the head-wear, never come across this before. Looks like a cross between a slouch hat and a tropical helmet can you elucidate please ? (Thanks for some wonderful images. Despite my roots I'm ashamed to say I do tend to struggle differentiating between Scottish regiments, especially where varying battalion traditions are maintained, and this is all very helpful). Suddery Suddery, This 2SH piper is carrrying a Wolseley pattern foreign service helmet; thus, it is a tropical helmet. A white hackle is tucked into the pugaree. Hope this helps. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 7 June , 2012 Share Posted 7 June , 2012 Thanks Mike, something about the angle made it seem odd. I noticed an advertisement in the recent 'Naval & Military Press' book list for a publication entitled "Military Sun Helmets of the World" and thought 'how arcane !'. Amazing how quickly these words have come back to bite me in the rear. Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 7 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 June , 2012 Thanks Mike, something about the angle made it seem odd. I noticed an advertisement in the recent 'Naval & Military Press' book list for a publication entitled "Military Sun Helmets of the World" and thought 'how arcane !'. Amazing how quickly these words have come back to bite me in the rear. Suddery Suddery, The author of that book has a website http://www.nyc-techwriters.com/militaria/helmets.htm that may interest you. There is a section on British sun helmets. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 7 June , 2012 Share Posted 7 June , 2012 Hi Mike I've bookmarked it - another great resource. Believe it or not I was looking at the helmet from the viewpoint of the hackle as being at the front and I've only just noticed the strap. Take a look from this perspective and you'll see how I got so confused. ...anyway, back to the sporrans. Regards Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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