Guide to Sporrans (continued)

[Corgarian]

Can anyone help with identifying the regiment of this young man. I was handed the enlarged image in a picture frame last week. He has suffered the effects of being in a damp shed for years. I was in Strathdon in Aberdeenshire when I was handed the image. Although firmly in 6th Gordon's territory, the young men who did not survive were also in a plethora of other Highland Regiments. Does his sporran give anything away?

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Corgarian said:

Can anyone help with identifying the regiment of this young man. I was handed the enlarged image in a picture frame last week. He has suffered the effects of being in a damp shed for years. I was in Strathdon in Aberdeenshire when I was handed the image. Although firmly in 6th Gordon's territory, the young men who did not survive were also in a plethora of other Highland Regiments. Does his sporran give anything away?

Seaforth Highlanders given the two black tassels on white, although the regiment’s Mackenzie tartan kilt has been poorly rendered by some kind of artistic retouching, which you can also see with folds accentuated in the puttees, ribbed stocking tops and creases in boots.

He also wears the emergency simplified pattern of service jacket issued pro tem from late summer 1914 to early autumn 1915.  Given the puttees the latter year is the most likely.  Glengarry caps tended to have been replaced by khaki bonnets from 1916.

images via websearch.

Edited 25 August by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

7 hours ago, Corgarian said:

Can anyone help with identifying the regiment of this young man. I was handed the enlarged image in a picture frame last week. He has suffered the effects of being in a damp shed for years. I was in Strathdon in Aberdeenshire when I was handed the image. Although firmly in 6th Gordon's territory, the young men who did not survive were also in a plethora of other Highland Regiments. Does his sporran give anything away?

The sporran most closely resembles that worn by Gordon Highlander pipers with the three protuberances at the top. See image below. The contradiction is that pipers almost always would wear a solid colored glengarry. However, @4thGordons has posted a rare photo in the past of a Gordon piper wearing a diced glengarry. Perhaps, he could re-post that image.

The kilt pin is placed in proper position for a Gordon Highlander. The Seaforth wore the kilt pin lower. The geography also furthers the likelihood of a Gordon Highlander.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, gordon92 said:

The sporran most closely resembles that worn by Gordon Highlander pipers with the three protuberances at the top. See image below. The contradiction is that pipers almost always would wear a solid colored glengarry. However, @4thGordons has posted a rare photo in the past of a Gordon piper wearing a diced glengarry. Perhaps, he could re-post that image.

The kilt pin is placed in proper position for a Gordon Highlander. The Seaforth wore the kilt pin lower. The geography also furthers the likelihood of a Gordon Highlander.

That all sounds entirely logical and I think you’re probably right.  Attempting to overlay a Gordon’s sett over the artwork might help confirm it.

[4thGordons]

I'm not sure on the sporran - the cantle really doesn't look like those shown in my pics. Also the picture is so heavily retouched (with the exception of the face) I am not sure attempts to match sett etc are going to be productive.

I just has a quick run through my photos and found two Gordons pipers in diced glens for one the battalion is identified 1/7th, and the other is not but is also probably a TF battalion at a (just) pre war camp.

In both these pictures the pipers wear the standard OR's Sporran and in both pictures the senior piper shown has the traditional undiced glen.

Here's the a piper's cantle worn by my great-grandfather

and another wartime shot of an unidentified piper

and Pipe Major Howarth DCM and Bar

 

 

 

 

Edited 25 August by 4thGordons
correct name spelling

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

I'm not sure on the sporran - the cantle really doesn't look like those shown in my pics. Also the picture is so heavily retouched (with the exception of the face) I am not sure attempts to match sett etc are going to be productive.

I just has a quick run through my photos and found two Gordons pipers in diced glens for one the battalion is identified 1/7th, and the other is not but is also probably a TF battalion at a (just) pre war camp.

In both these pictures the pipers wear the standard OR's Sporran and in both pictures the senior piper shown has the traditional undiced glen.

Here's the a piper's cantle worn by my great-grandfather

and another wartime shot by an unidentified piper

and Pipe Major Howard DCM and Bar

 

 

 

It seems unproven then (appropriate Scottish law term). I don’t know how important the kilt pin aspect is.

[gordon92]

4 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

I'm not sure on the sporran - the cantle really doesn't look like those shown in my pics. Also the picture is so heavily retouched (with the exception of the face) I am not sure attempts to match sett etc are going to be productive.

I just has a quick run through my photos and found two Gordons pipers in diced glens for one the battalion is identified 1/7th, and the other is not but is also probably a TF battalion at a (just) pre war camp.

In both these pictures the pipers wear the standard OR's Sporran and in both pictures the senior piper shown has the traditional undiced glen.

Here's the a piper's cantle worn by my great-grandfather

and another wartime shot by an unidentified piper

and Pipe Major Howard DCM and Bar

 

 

 

Pipers' sporran in the Gordon Highlanders varied all over the place as a function of time, preferences of the pipes president or CO, and whether regular battalion or TF.

 

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Pipers' sporran in the Gordon Highlanders varied all over the place as a function of time, preferences of the pipes president or CO, and whether regular battalion or TF.

 

Yes I agree that there was a lot of variety.  All a part of the regimental development of dress with the minimum external interference that they could get away with, particularly because most battalions greatly exceeded the number of pipers that were authorised (and therefore funded) by the War Office endorsed establishment.  I’d still like to see some kind of kilt overlay, as it seems clear that the artist has tried to reflect (emphasise) the detail that he could see on the original photo.  It would be significant to see whether such an overlay would be closer to Gordon or Mackenzie.

Edited 25 August by FROGSMILE

[4thGordons]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

  I’d still like to see some kind of kilt overlay, as it seems clear that the artist has tried to reflect (emphasise) the detail that he could see on the original photo.  It would be significant to see whether such an overlay would be closer to Gordon or Mackenzie.

I'm not sure. However, the artist seems to have  put  in a double (thin) horizontal line and I am not sure that features in either Gordon or McKenzie setts. And that is before we address the issue of orthochromatic representation of light colours like yellow as dark, and the fact that it is far easier for the developer to add darker lines than lighter to the picture......

Just to complete the oddities of Gordon piper sporrans - I also have this one with yet another variation:

 

To return to the original picture:

The subject appears to be wearing a Simplified Pattern Service Dress Jacket, which would indicate after the outbreak of war (reinforced by the presence of puttees/hose and boots rather than spats/brogues) which means, officially (although we all know not universally) sporrans had been withdrawn from general issue/use - so there is also the possibility of a photographic prop to spiff up the picture a bit. 

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

I'm not sure. However, the artist seems to have  put  in a double (thin) horizontal line and I am not sure that features in either Gordon or McKenzie setts. And that is before we address the issue of orthochromatic representation of light colours like yellow as dark, and the fact that it is far easier for the developer to add darker lines than lighter to the picture......

Yes I see what you mean Chris, not at all a straightforward process.  It seems that we are confined to the balance of probability of the image showing a Gordon being buttressed by the kilt pin.

Edited 26 August by FROGSMILE

[Corgarian]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That all sounds entirely logical and I think you’re probably right.  Attempting to overlay a Gordon’s sett over the artwork might help confirm it.

Thank you to all who have assisted with this. The image was certainly located in what would originally have been area of the Strathdon platoon (Parishes of Corgarff, Strathdon, Glenbuchat & Towie) of F Company (Alford) of the 6th Battalion Gordon Highlanders (T.F).

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, Corgarian said:

Thank you to all who have assisted with this. The image was certainly located in what would originally have been area of the Strathdon platoon (Parishes of Corgarff, Strathdon, Glenbuchat & Towie) of F Company (Alford) of the 6th Battalion Gordon Highlanders (T.F).

I think you can safely conclude based on that and the evidence provided by Gordon92 and 4thGordons that your photo probably shows a soldier of the Gordon’s wearing a non-standard type sporran around 1915.

Edited 26 August by FROGSMILE

[Corgarian]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think you can safely conclude based on that and the evidence provided by Gordon92 and 4thGordons that your photo probably shows a soldier of the Gordon’s wearing a non-standard type sporran around 1915.

Often photography studios provided props for the soldiers at a time when they may not have had a full uniform.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Corgarian said:

Often photography studios provided props for the soldiers at a time when they may not have had a full uniform.

I think that was a peculiar feature of Scotland, as we’ve seen other incidences where men (clearly still civilians) who have had photos taken of themselves in a mish mash of obsolescent, and sometimes tatty and unclean items of old Scottish (generally highland) uniform, presumably to show off to family members or friends.  There are a few threads in the forum showing this and a particular studio in Aberdeen seemed to specialise in it.  See also: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/297359-uniform-identification-request-scottish-regiment/#comment-312397

There is very little evidence based on the many thousands of photos that are or have been available online to suggest similar practices in England, Wales and Ireland, not least because there was no equivalent national military dress, contrived or otherwise.

 

Edited 26 August by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I see what you mean Chris, not at all a straightforward process.  It seems that we are confined to the balance of probability of the image showing a Gordon being buttressed by the kilt pin.

As matter of curiosity for me, I did some checking on the matter of kilt pins.  The Gordons placed the kilt pin straddling the second horizontal yellow line from the bottom of the kilt.  That would usually position it on the upper portion of the thigh but below the skirt line of the jacket, frock, or doublet. All ranks wore the kilt pin.

In the Seaforth Highlanders, the kilt pin straddled the last horizontal red line on the kilt which would position it on the lower portion of the thigh*. Only officers, warrant officers, staff sergeants and sometimes sergeants wore the kilt pin. The rank and file did not.

The above is relevant inasmuch the OP shows a Pte wearing a kilt pin thus strengthening the balance of probability that the subject in @Corgarian's image is a Gordon Highlander.

 

*There are a number of photos from the 1930s showing the Prince of Wales - King Edward VIII in his Seaforth Highlanders uniform with the kilt pin mis-positioned on a white line of the kilt. I doubt that anyone was inclined to point out the error!

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, gordon92 said:

I doubt that anyone was inclined to point out the error!

It would have been the responsibility of his valet.  In theory that individual should probably have kept a notebook containing matters pertaining to those regiments the PofW was formally associated with.  That said most of his other regiments, e.g. the Royal Scots Fusiliers, would’ve been more straightforward.

[gordon92]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It would have been the responsibility of his valet.  In theory that individual should probably have kept a notebook containing matters pertaining to those regiments the PofW was formally associated with.  That said most of his other regiments, e.g. the Royal Scots Fusiliers, would’ve been more straightforward.

Yes, I can imagine that the idiosyncrasies of Highland regimental dress would have been very challenging for a valet.  There was a story passed on to me by David Murray about HM KGV in that regard. He was Colonel in Chief of the Cameron Highlanders.  The Camerons wore the full scarf plaid in Levee Dress as you probably know.  In 1911, PM William Kinnear had to be called from Aldershot, where the 1st Bn was stationed, to help the valet tie the King's plaid.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Yes, I can imagine that the idiosyncrasies of Highland regimental dress would have been very challenging for a valet.  There was a story passed on to me by David Murray about HM KGV in that regard. He was Colonel in Chief of the Cameron Highlanders.  The Camerons wore the full scarf plaid in Levee Dress as you probably know.  In 1911, PM William Kinnear had to be called from Aldershot, where the 1st Bn was stationed, to help the valet tie the King's plaid.

An interesting and evocative anecdote that paints an apt picture of highland costume very well.

Edited 27 August by FROGSMILE