Haig

[shinglma]

That old leftie Alan Clark?

[PhilB]

If I recall correctly he did very well at the Staff College.

Did he?

Arm.

Care to expand, Arm? Phil B

[Anthony Pigott]

As one might expect with this subject, there's rather more heat than light being generated here.

As someone with (I think ) no axe to grind, can I make a plea for some source data here - presumably the evidence on Haig's academic performance is available, along with it's position relative to his peers?

It would cut through all this stuff about who we should believe (second or third hand) and what their motives might have been. Not so much fun perhaps, but we would hopefully get closer to the truth.

Anthony

[Clive Maier]

... This also ties in with the late 20th Century and broadly left-wing view that those from privileged backgrounds were necessarily less well suited to such tasks than would have been a self-made man in a more meritocratic age ...

I think the charge is that privilege outweighed other considerations. Selection on this basis is likely to include and condone the less able. So while those from privileged backgrounds were not of necessity less able, a number of them were simply because ability was not the prime criterion that it should have been.

[Tim Birch]

As one might expect with this subject, there's rather more heat than light being generated here.

As someone with (I think  ) no axe to grind, can I make a plea for some source data here - presumably the evidence on Haig's academic performance is available, along with it's position relative to his peers?

It would cut through all this stuff about who we should believe (second or third hand) and what their motives might have been. Not so much fun perhaps, but we would hopefully get closer to the truth.

Anthony

Haig:-

1875-1879 Clifton College. No distiguishing achievements

1880-1883 Brasenose College, Oxford. Passed Groups, exams which entitled him to a degree, but debarred from taking degree as he had missed one term due to illness. He should have stayed on for an extra term, but chose not to as he had his heart now set on Sandhurst. He spent sopme months at a crammers to prepare himself for and passed Sandhurst entrance exam.

1884-Sandhurst. In Dec 1884 he passed out first in order of merit and was awarded the Anson Memorial Sword - the highest honour availabe at Sandhurst.

1885 Commissioned in 7th Hussars.

1896-1897 Staff College. Passed out, but no distinguishing achievements.

Source "Haig" by Duff Cooper.

Not a brilliant academic record, but not one of a dunce either. I'd say average, even slightly above, due to his achievement at Sandhurst.

You are right Arm, it was at Sandhurst that he excelled - not the Staff College.

Tim

[John_Hartley]

Only five years and two degrees' worth of university studies

Damn it. There I am again - losing out in a debate with a graduate. Story of my life. Never had the intellectual capacity to get beyond O Level. I struggled to get the four I possess.

Still on the basis that I've never let the facts get in the way of a good argument, can I suggest that that rarified atmosphere of academia is hardly representative of "broad left opinion" (although it may be the small strand of which you have experience and I accept that).

John

[PhilB]

I have just read Ch 5 of the Killing Grounds but didn`t find much pro-Haig in it. Thanks for the lead, MDR.

Can someone advise me - did the Anson Memorial Sword always go to a Senior Under Officer? Phil B

[Muerrisch]

Not a brilliant academic record, but not one of a dunce either. I'd say average, even slightly above, due to his achievement at Sandhurst.

There was intense competition to get a place at Staff College: many did not. If you were average, not a lot of hope.

[DirtyDick]

Still on the basis that I've never let the facts get in the way of a good argument, can I suggest that that rarified atmosphere of academia is hardly representative of "broad left opinion" (although it may be the small strand of which you have experience and I accept that).

John

True enough, John.

It is ironic that in the supposedly erudite surroundings of a campus few challenge the broadly left-wing beliefs instilled in them as undergraduates, and no matter how many qualifications - most requiring a great measure of conscious objectivity, especially in History - some still appear riddled with such inconsistent thinking if it plays no direct part in their field of study. (Most emblematic is the anti-Thatcher dogma which appears to go unchallenged, leading to lazy and reactionary thinking among SOME within Education: viz the more radical members at teachers' conferences. Equally appalling is the unchallenged right-wing views prevalent in some of the broadsheets: I cannot abide reading the editorials for this very reason.)

I have wholehearted respect for those who have a constructive set of political beliefs, which you most often find outside of non-political studies university settings, rather than the unthinking 'anti-brigade' one often encounters.

Like that Fry & Laurie joke: My father was Conservative and my mother was a Socialist, so I suppose I should be a Liberal ... but in actual fact I am a Nazi.

Cheers

Richard

[armourersergeant]

If I recall correctly he did very well at the Staff College.

Did he?

Arm.

Care to expand, Arm? Phil B

It would be true to say that at Staff College Henderson one of the tutors and a good mind of his time was quoted later as saying that one ot the class would make Feild Marshall. he was refering to Douglas Haig. But it would also be accurate to say that at one point (according to Edmonds himself i beleive, doing this from memory) Haig was helped in his class and feild work by Edmonds. This does not imply that he was stupid or dim but i would say not brilliant. Though it would also be fair to say that the class he was in was distinguished and fair in this class may be a good mark!!

It included Allenby, Edmonds, Macdonagh, Forestier-Walker, Capper, Haking, and many others. the accepted brilliant student by his fellow students does not seem to have made much of an impact in later life(sorry his name fails me).

It is implied that his help to Haig at staff college was what got Edmonds a job at GHQ after his break down in 1914. Haig was very loyal to his friends.

Brains I think does not necesserily imply brilliant general. Haking was very well read and written and was prominet at Staff college in a tutors role before the war. Wilson who was a disaster at Corps level was a good Staff college commandant. What Haig had that many did not was beleif that he was the man and his course was true. This i beleive got him through when perhaps many would have faltered!!

regards

Arm.

[Guest AmericanDoughboy]

By fact of history, Mr. Lloyd George and Sir Douglas Haig despised each other deeply and any Lloyd George Documentary circulated on his opinions and ideals is most likely negative drifted towards Sir Douglas Haig. Lloyd George struggled in 1916 to sack Haig, but Haig survived due to his public appreciation.

-Doughboy

[armourersergeant]

I really beleive that LG did not dismiss Haig because he could not find a better solution or candidate. were any of the other potential commanders likely to adopt differing tatics greatly. Lets not forget in the main his potential replacements were the men actually carrying out this 'slaughter', albiet in varying degrees of ability?

LG was very astute politician. if he got rid of Haig and went against public and royal opinion he would probably have fell from power. He therefore put his career and position above what he felt was the correct thing to do!

Arm.

[paul guthrie]

I have never jumped into the pro & anti Haig disputes we have had, make that differences instead. It does strike me strange that Haig defenders all condemn Lloyd George and all credit Haig for being in charge in the final 100 days; so was Lloyd George.

W/O entering the Haig debate, I feel he was an excellent war PM.

[Jonathan Saunders]

1884-Sandhurst. In Dec 1884 he passed out first in order of merit and was awarded the Anson Memorial Sword - the highest honour availabe at Sandhurst.

I have heard and read different accounts of this. Can anyone categorically confirm the Anson sword was awarded to Haig (there was some debate it was ever given to Haig) because he passed out first in the order of merit? My understanding is the award of the Anson Sword at this time had nothing to do with a cadet's final standing in the order of merit.

I also understand from Terraine's TES that Haig failed the Staff College test and had to wait until the patronage of Sir Evelyn Wood and the Duke of Cambridge secured his entry into the Staff College by running roughshod over all the rules of entry.

[armourersergeant]

I also understand from Terraine's TES that Haig failed the Staff College test and had to wait until the patronage of Sir Evelyn Wood and the Duke of Cambridge secured his entry into the Staff College by running roughshod over all the rules of entry.

I think that the pass grade was lowered to the mark that Haig had obtained...please dont quote me as i can not remeber where i read this!!!! But certainly he would not have got in without some help.

Paul..

good point about LG being in charge I have never looked at it this way before

regards

Arm.

[Anthony Pigott]

I also understand from Terraine's TES that Haig failed the Staff College test and had to wait until the patronage of Sir Evelyn Wood and the Duke of Cambridge secured his entry into the Staff College by running roughshod over all the rules of entry.

I think that the pass grade was lowered to the mark that Haig had obtained...please dont quote me as i can not remeber where i read this!!!! But certainly he would not have got in without some help.

...

regards

Arm.

Again, where's the evidence or at least the source of the suspicion?

(Thanks Tim for your earlier contribution to getting us on the straight and narrow.)

There seems to be a lot of suggestion that Haig was favoured / privileged but I haven't heard why he is supposed to have been. Why would he have been given an advantage over others?

Anthony

(Neutral on Haig - just after the facts )

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

1884-Sandhurst. In Dec 1884 he passed out first in order of merit and was awarded the Anson Memorial Sword - the highest honour availabe at Sandhurst.

I have heard and read different accounts of this. Can anyone categorically confirm the Anson sword was awarded to Haig (there was some debate it was ever given to Haig) because he passed out first in the order of merit? My understanding is the award of the Anson Sword at this time had nothing to do with a cadet's final standing in the order of merit.

I also understand from Terraine's TES that Haig failed the Staff College test and had to wait until the patronage of Sir Evelyn Wood and the Duke of Cambridge secured his entry into the Staff College by running roughshod over all the rules of entry.

Denis Winter,in:"Haig's Command";Viking Books 1991; states:"The Anson Sword Presents a similar problem.compared with today's Sword of Honour;The Anson Sword was a prize of strictly limited value.Captain the Hon;Augustus Anson,VC;had been a strong opponent of those Victorian Army reforms which abolished a rich Officers right to buy a Commission.His sword had therefore been intended as a protest against the invidious principle of promotion by merit,& only gentlemen Cadets were eligble- which meant the Anson had nothing to do with the sort of merit demanded by the Battlefields of the Great War.The year in which Haig is supposed to have won it anyway is blank on the records today.If he had invented his award of the Anson sword it wouldn't have been the only fabrication in the CV he put together to further his own career...."Also on his Passing out of Sandhurst,Winter states:"The custom of Sandhurst was for Cadets to be Gazetted in order of Merit,top of the list going to the senior Regiment,& so on down in order,The fact that Haig passed into the 7th Hussars hardly suggests he came near the top,even after getting a 20% "Bonus" mark from the "Professors" without explanation...."{PS don't shoot me .I'm only the messenger!}

[Greenwoodman]

Signals

Haig was top of his course and awarded the Anson Sword (for passing first out of college at Christmas, there being 129 in his term). His Sandhurst record was analysed (from primary sources held in the Sandhurst archives) by S A Anglim in an article called "Haig's Cadetship - a Reassessment" published in the British Army Review in August 1992. An extract of his results can be seen in the article.

HarryBettsMCDCM (I'm not shooting the messenger - honest!)

As regards Winter's "blank in the record books" - (in fact re-reading Winter, he is laughably inaccurate about Haig's "Professional Credentials"), Anglim based his article on the record books, available to researchers at Sandhurst.

Anson Sword - given to the cadet who passes first out of college at Christmas. Equal in value to the General Proficiency Sword awarded at Midsummer to the cadet who passes out first

Anson VC was against the abolition of purchase but it didn't stop his friends, on his death, instituting the sword to be presented to the most deserving cadet of his term.

Gentlemen Cadets - all cadets at Sandhurst were referred to as Gentlemen Cadets, their results are kept in the Registers of Gentlemen Cadets. So its true that only Gentlemen Cadets were eligible for the Anson, but there were ONLY Gentlemen Cadets at Sandhurst.

Fabrication of CV - if Haig had fabricated the award of the Anson Sword, just how would he have ensured that all 128 of his classmates would have remained quiet about it.

Top of the list going to the senior regiment? Garbage. In Haig's year, of the top men passing out with Haig, six went to county line regiments and one to the West India regiment. The first Life Guard on the list passed out 61st. Choice of regiment was usually made before arrival at Sandhurst.

The responses above are based on Anglim's article - I can recommend it. But Winter's research for that particular part of the book was non-existant. Half a day at Sandhurst would have sorted it out. Instead Haig's "Professional Credentials" in the public's eyes are based upon Winter's fabrications of his CV - unfortunately, because its controversial, Winter's book is probably the most read of all the books on Haig.

Arm

As regards getting into staff college by lowering of the pass mark - yes its in one of the Haig books (Winter - what a coincidence), where Royal patronage gets the passmark cut by 15%. But there's no proof. Warner favours The Duke of Cambridge's nomination, Sixsmith favours Evelyn Wood as eminence grise, yet another author records that a number of officers were nominated to the staff college every year, over and above those who did pass the examination. So take your pick.

[armourersergeant]

Arm

As regards getting into staff college by lowering of the pass mark - yes its in one of the Haig books (Winter - what a coincidence), where Royal patronage gets the passmark cut by 15%. But there's no proof. Warner favours The Duke of Cambridge's nomination, Sixsmith favours Evelyn Wood as eminence grise, yet another author records that a number of officers were nominated to the staff college every year, over and above those who did pass the examination. So take your pick.

thanks for that Richard,

I wondered if it was Winters book though I have only skim read that 'comedy'. If I had been betting I would have said it was Travers 'The killing Ground' that I had read it in. Regardless thanks for the source.

regards

Arm.

[Tim Birch]

Fabrication of CV - if Haig had fabricated the award of the Anson Sword, just how would he have ensured that all 128 of his classmates would have remained quiet about it.

Good point Arm. Duff Cooper's biography of Haig was published at a time (1935) when many of Haig's contemporaries were still alive. I can't imagine that if it had been a fabrication by Haig that it would have passed unoticed! Unfortunately Cooper does not quote his source, but Haig was already dead by then.

For a Regular Soldier like Haig to have made such a claim, if untrue, would have labled him a bounder if discovered, and would have jeopardised his career.

Tim

[John_Hartley]

the anti-Thatcher dogma which appears to go unchallenged,

Richard

Please don't get me started on a response to the "T" word. It'd get me in awful trouble with the moderators.

John