The Somme: The Day-by-day Account By Chris McCarthy

[neutrino]

Does this book detail events right up to 18 November 1918?

And if so does it give details ofwhere individual Battalions were at certain times?

[stevem49]

It goes to 19th Nov with some mention of Battalions. The map gives brigade locations.

[Neil Mackenzie]

Neutrino.

It goes from 1 July to 19 November 1916. It does outline where individual Battalions were if they were 'active' i.e. in the front line and doing something offensive or defensive. It usually indicates if a Division takes over a portion of the line from another Division so you can get a good idea of where the Battalions were even if not assaulting.

Neil

[neutrino]

An ancestor from 5th Btn SWB died on the Somme on 15 November and I was wondering if this book might tell me of any action he was involved with when he died.

I realise he may have died from wounds sustained earlier.

Is it worth a trip to Brecon which is only an hour or so drive from where I live?

[Ken Lees]

Do you mean he died on the Somme on 15th November, 1918, or 1916?

[Bernard_Lewis]

I assume you mean 1916; if you PM me your e-mail address I'll send you some info.

Bernard

[neutrino]

Do you mean he died on the Somme on 15th November, 1918, or 1916?

I meant 1916.

I can't believe I wrote 1918 because I checked it out a few times.

Old age.

Thanks for putting me right.

To Bernard_Lewis,

Thanks for the offer of some info I'll PM you now.

Bernard I get a message saying that you can't receive any more PMs.

Is that because your inbox is full???

[David Filsell]

A pretty rare book now and costly. And a book in need of reprinting.

[Ken Lees]

A better book for identifying the locations and movements of all infantry battalions during the Somme campaign is Ray Westlake's "British Battalions on the Somme".

[Neil Mackenzie]

The Somme book is 'as cheap as chips' (well £5-£10) it is the Passchendaele equivalent that can be pricey.

Neil

[Bernard_Lewis]

Not sure about inbox. Contact me via WWW.swanseabattalion.net and I'll get the info to you Monday.

Bernard

[Rob Connolly]

Neutrino, I've had a look in the McCarthy book and can't find any details for 5 SWB on the 15th November. I went back and checked the Official History; 5 SWB was the pioneer battalion of 19th Division, which division was not involved in any attacks on the 15th. It, and the 5th SWB, were involved in an attack on 13th November against the German positions at Grandcourt. From the OH: "Two sections of the 81st Field Company RE and two companies of the 5th SWB came forward to help in the work of consolidation, but the mist thinned about noon and digging was somewhat interrupted by machine-gun fire at short range from the left front -" "The total casualties in the attack amounted to less than two hundred -"

It is possible, as you mention, that your relative was fatally injured on 13th November in the supporting operations, but did not die until the 15th.

Hope this helps!

[SWorrall]

Neutrino;

5/SWB: Mitchinson's 'Pioneer battalions in the Great War: organised and intelligent labour' records that on November 13th;

'The 5/SWB were busy consolidating the German positions captured near Grandcourt and, like the (13th) Gloucesters, worked under continual shell and machine-gun fire'.

Westlake only records that the bn. was engaged on 'operations south of the Ancre', without giving any dates or details for this.

There are only two casualties listed for 5/SWB on Nov 15th 1916. Looking them up in SDGW gives the following info, with extra info culled from CWGC. I assume that one of these is your ancestor?;

Trevor James Harman Thomas: Private ; 39447 ; aged 19 ; born Cardiff ; resident Llandaff ; enlisted Cardiff ; KIA ; formerly no. 4644 in the Monmouthshire Regt. Commemorated at Aveluy on a Special Memorial.

Harry Jenkins: Private ; 13972 ; aged 25 ; born Neath ; resident Melyn ; enlisted Neath ; Died of Wounds ; interred at Aveluy.

Simon.

[neutrino]

Thanks Rob and Simon.

This info seems to clear it all up for me.

One final point. Does 'Commemorated at Aveluy on a Special Memorial.' mean that insufficient remains were found to allow a burial in a grave?

Thanks again.

[John_Hartley]

Does 'Commemorated at Aveluy on a Special Memorial.' mean that insufficient remains were found to allow a burial in a grave?

No.

It will depend on the actual wording of the memorial but it is likely to mean that he is known to be buried in the cemetery but the location is not known (my great uncle has a special memorial similar like that at Hannescamps) or that he was known to be buried there but the grave was destroyed in subsequent fighting.

[keithmroberts]

One further type of special memorial is that sometimes they list men who were buried in another cemetery, but whose graves were subsequently lost. This can be a German or British cemetery that no longer exists - as John said the memorial will have specific information on it.

Keith

[John_Hartley]

Keith's right - and I'm surprised I forgot that one.

There are special memorials at Savy British Cemetery to men of 17th Manchesters and 19th Kings Liverpools who were killed in the fighting around 22/3/18 and who were buried by the Germans in their cemetery on the St Quentin - Roupy road. They were destroyed by later shellfire. Some 232 burials there were not destroyed and these were relocated to Savy after the war.

[SWorrall]

neutrino:

If, as it seems from your comment, Trevor Thomas is your interest, then he was killed at the front line on Nov 15th.

This is the meaning of 'Killed in Action'.

If, as was speculated previously, he had been injured on the 13th and expired on the 15th, then he would have been recorded as 'Died of wounds' , like Harry Jenkins.

Moreover, he would have been likely to have been evacuated to a medical facility, and then buried adjacent to that place.

A Special Memorial at Aveluy would probably not fit that chain of events.

I speculate now, see the coments of John and Keith regarding memorials above: perhaps his death was known and confirmed on that date. His remains were interred, but subsequently their whereabouts were lost. Hence his appearance on a Special Memorial.

Simon.

[neutrino]

Thank you John and Keith.

And Simon I may be nitpicking here but you and Rob say that there were no actions on the 15th November but then Simon goes on to note:

-'There are only two casualties listed for 5/SWB on Nov 15th 1916. ' Do you mean 13th November?

i.e. Trevor Thomas was fatally injured in the action of 13th November but is listed as dieing on 15th November.

Simon, thanks again, it seems that last post of yours clarifies it all.

[SWorrall]

neutrino;

Careful with your interpretation. I did not say that there were 'no actions on the 15th'.

In post #13 I noted that during their working period around Grandcourt, from Nov 13th (onwards), Mitchinson records 'continual shelling and machine-gun fire'.

Rob has also made his note from the OH about the 13th Nov.

There is nothing specific in the OH, Mitchinson or McCarthy about the 15th, but the absence of specific information does not indicate a cessation of action.

The comment from Mitchinson gives an idea of what it was like.

The fact that no offensive or defensive action was being actively pursued does not mean that it was quiet. Far from it.

All the information available about Trevor Thomas informs us that he was killed, immediately, in the front line area, definitely on November 15th 1916, whilst engaged in the performance of his duties.

Simon.

[neutrino]

Thanks Simon.

It was Rob who noted '5 SWB was the pioneer battalion of 29th Division, which division was not involved in any attacks on the 15th.' I then incorrectly assumed everything was quiet on the 15th.

I got the Westlake book out of my local library and as you say only one the sentence really refers to south of the Ancre at approximately the date 13 to 15 Nov.

The other books aren't available although I am reading Richard Holmes' 'Shots from the Front', although I'm not expecting it to give particular info just part of my general interest in WWI.

One thing I hope I've learned during these and other recent posts is to be careful in fact extra careful in what I post because if not then it's easy to pick up incorrect info and all you guys are very careful about that. For obvious reasons. I suppose that's the difference between the rank amateur and the seasoned professional.

[Aneurin]

neutrino

The South Wales Daily News (6 December 1916) claims Trevor Thomas was killed by a shell. It adds he was 19, employed by Tresider's nurseries in Llandaff before joining the Army in May 1916 and served on the Western Front for 2 months. There is also a photo.

The Western Mail (7 December 1916) has a photo too.

He is commemorated on the Llandaff war memorial.

Gwyn

[neutrino]

Thanks Aneurin that's amazing info.

How long did it take to find that???

I've got one more search for a relative but am a bit loathe to ask because of all the effort posters have put in on this one.

With all the tips I've picked up so far I think I'll get myself into Bridgend library which has proper Family History center and spend some time looking up there before asking the lads here.

[SWorrall]

Ask away neutrino.

But if your query is about a person, put it in that section of the Forum instead.

Give it some hooks that will get people's attention: regiment ; date(s) ; battle(s) ; etc. in the thread heading.

You'll get far more response than you did here, and from people who are more expert in those areas you name.

Don't delay, you gain nothing from it.

Simon.

[Aneurin]

Not long, Neutrino. He's in my database.

The Western Mail (7.12.16) incidentally says he was the only son of Mr and Mrs J. Thomas, "Penmark", Mary Street, Llandaff North and the grandson of the late Mr. John Thomas, Tynyparc, Whitchurch.

The SWDN (6.12.16) says he worked for Mr. Selway, Old Church Road, Whitchurch before joining Tresider's in Llandaff.

You are probably aware of this, but - as watching any rugby match between Llandaff and Llandaff North will certainly confirm - they are two close but different places.

Where was your other man from? Was he killed?

Gwyn