Artillery question

[Dave_59]

This may seem like a silly question but here goes...

Were men in the RA only employed to work on artillery pieces themselves. Did they go OTT like other infantry soldiers? I ask this question because the RA losses seem very high if they only manned the guns.

dave

[PhilB]

Dave, the RA didn`t normally go over the top. They were, however, prime targets for the German artillery. I`m sure some ex-gunner will come on and tell us about the importance of counter battery fire. Phil B

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Artillery batteries on both sides of the line were subjected to intense enemy bombardments when discovered. The gunners would be operating the guns behind the steel shield that was effective against enemy fire from the front but not anywhere else.

Before the battle of the Somme the XIV Reserve Corps issued guidelines regarding enemy artillery. It was not a matter of silencing an enemy battery when found, it was a matter of destroying it. The following was taken from an article I wrote some time back regarding this point.

The German artillery, however, did continue its harassment fire against enemy artillery positions. During the months preceding the offensive the German artillery had registered its guns on all known enemy artillery positions and each battery was registered on every artillery target in range. Registration was considered complete when at least two groups or salvoes had been observed to fall correctly on target.

The German batteries fired against enemy battery positions that were known to be occupied. When an enemy battery was being engaged the desired effect was not to merely silence the battery but destroy it. It was estimated that this would require about 150 rounds from a 15 cm. Heavy Field Howitzer, or 100 rounds from a 21 cm. Mortar.

Now if you were subjected to 100 21cm rounds or 150 15cm rounds you would probably have considerable casualties as well.

Ralph

[BMoorhouse]

Don't also forget the forward observers, who often exposed themselves when directing artillery fire. Usually (in fact always) officers from my reading.

Brendon.

[leigh]

Dave,

I am transcribing the diary of the 7th mountain battery RGA. There are lots of accounts of them targeting the German guns and the Germans doing the same to them...

Capt SIMONDS gun in position on tow path N of canal about 200 yards in front of lock and at short range fired shell. Capt ARMSTRONG’s gun in position on S of railway embankment & N of CUINCHY did not fire. This gun was bombed by the enemy who discovered its position by search lights. Its was temporarily withdrawn under cover in rear.

This is the extract form the diary when my Gt Uncle died. They were being targeted by German artillery fire.

Jan 29 Capt SIMONDS with 2 guns fired 50 rounds from SPOIL HEAP at approx 1700. The KEEP was attacked at 9.30 am but his guns could not fire in the direction of this attack. Gnr PERROTT killed and Gnr GROVES wounded. At about 2.30 pm the Germans dropped 4 shells near our billets. Lt Col Knapp left for England.

Jan 30th The Germans fired some bombs into the KEEP. Capt SIMOND returned to PONT FIXE, Capt SIMONDS to the keep everything very quiet.

There is one account of them getting targeted and they abandoned the gun. on returning all the hay around it was burning which then burnt the wheels. They had to wait till the next day to get a new wheel from the 2nd battery.

The following also highlights that when things got sticky the artillery got involved. I assume Lt LUKE had lead the infantry due to thier officer being killed. I have read several cases of artillery officers leaving thier guns and rallying infantry for a counter attack.

Jan 10th

Battery move to new billet *** **** of PONT DE GORRE. An attack was made to recapture *** on railway by KRR at CUINCHY. Guns in action there ordered not to fire during attack but to cooperate if necessary  in case of counter attack. – attack successful a few rounds fired by Capn ARMSTRONG from a trench howitzer. During the night  *** TAYLOR formed one of a detachment of 2. Sent with a trench mortar to observation post to help infantry to hold on during the night. A partially successful counter attack by enemy at 9:30 pm repulsed by a counter charge. Lt  J LUKE R.F.A. was killed leading the infantry in this charge having rallied them. B* TAYLOR who by then was alone did good work with his howitzer.

(*'s denote hard to read words)

As Phil and Ralph have mentioned it was probably quit tough back there. You might not have been on the front but the Germans soon knew exactly where you were.

Regards

Leigh

[Ali Hollington]

Just to add to something mentioned previously, I believe the Forward observation Officers (FOO's) would often go over the top and take with them a number of men to act as signallers/linemen, not sure if this was happening at the start of the war but I'm fairly sure it was by the end to allow the arty to respond to the tactical situation. This still happens nowadays with FOO teams being attached to infantry bnsas operationally required.

Ali

[Simon R]

I agree, don't forget the poor blokes reeling out telephone cable back to the bty., waving semaphore flags from shellholes or when all else fails running back to the gun pits. Fixing wires whilst under any sort of fire, at night, in mud, cold, wet and exhausted was the devils work.

Gunners would also of course have to spend time actually digging gun pits, often under observation, signallers would help constructing OP's etc, often under fire - of course, to see you have to be seen! Especially if you're overlooked on the Somme.

Artillery was a killer, for both sides.

Just to finish off, the bty. I'm working on did provide some flexible, tactical support to the 17th HLI during their assault on the Leipzig redoubt July 1st 1916. .

[Chris_Baker]

There are a few RA war diary extracts on the Long, Long Trail. They give a pretty good picture of activities and the causes of casualties.

[Hugh Pattenden]

Furthermore, the gunners could come under fire if the enemy broke through the front line as in March 1918, when a VC was won by a gunner for actions under direct small arms (as well as shell) fire from the enemy. Nery in 1914 is another example of how the artillery could find themselves with no one else between themselves and the Germans.

In addition to this, I have come across an MC citation which notes the actions of one junior artillery officer: 'During a very heavy bombardment by the enemy, after firing all his ammunition, he formed up his men and placed himself at the disposal of the Infantry Commanding Officer. He proceeded under heavy fire to the firing line, into which the enemy had penetrated, to see how he could best assist.' No doubt some of his men became casualties during their fighting in the firing line.

Hope this is of interest,

Hugh

[bmac]

Weren't the Heavy mortar batteries attached to Divisions also at least often officered by RA men?

[Hugh Pattenden]

I think the Heavy Mortars were manned by the RFA. The officer who's MC citation I quoted in my last post was RFA and was a member of a Mortar Battery when he died. No doubt they suffered quite a few casualties.

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

To give an example of the losses suffered by a German field artillery regiment I looked up Das Königlich Bayerische 2 Feldartillerie Regiment Horn. This artillery regiment 342 officers and men killed, died of illness or injuries and 1,593 officers and men wounded or injured during the war. This is much less than an average infantry regiment but still quite high considering where the regiment would be posted behind the lines, etc.

Ralph

[Simon R]

Hugh,

I have a very similar citation for the O.C. of D245 in 1918 - riding forward (against orders), rallying infantry i.e. stopping a rout and organising a counterattack.

[Tim Birch]

Did they go OTT like other infantry soldiers?

Dave

Whilst going over the top in an attack usually resulted in a high number of casualties in a short period of time, throughout the war thousands of men died from artillery fire during the so called quiet periods. As others have said Artillerymen were particularly vunerable to counter-battery fire, but infantry also suffered grieviously from artillery barrages when they were in the trenches, they were also at high risk moving to and from the line during reliefs. Even rear echelon men were at risk from the guns if they were within range. These included RE, ASC, RAMC, cooks, storemen, traffic police, and the numerous trades who operated in close support to the fighting troops.

I don't know if any research has been done, but it wouldn't surprise me if the cummulative number of men killed and wounded whilst not actually fighting exceeded the numbers killed in going over the top. Such an exersise would be difficult to carry out though because it is difficult to define what is meant by "fighting". Artillerymen were, even if it was from several thousand yards behind the front line.

Tim

[PhilB]

It`s a sobering thought that the losses outside the battles were referred to, by the commanders, as "wastage". It gives me a bit of a chill because of the suspicion that it might reflect a certain nonchalance by the staff towards the losses in the trenches. Phil B

[Steve11]

My grandfather was an RGA gunner on 60 pounders and I remember him telling me that they were often in artillery duels with German batteries.

Once, he said they moved forward to new positions in a location near a battery they had fought a duel with a few days before. Thr German guns and equipment had been completely wrecked and many of their dead were torn apart and hanging from the trees.

On another occasion he was almost complely buried by a German heavy shell that by a stroke of good fortune didn't even detonate.

Steve

[Simon R]

I have records of 13 gunners being killed by the explosion of a 4.5" howitzer gun limber at 3rd Ypres. Deeply unpleasant.

[Robert Dunlop]

Were men in the RA only employed to work on artillery pieces themselves. Did they go OTT like other infantry soldiers? I ask this question because the RA losses seem very high if they only manned the guns.

Dave

As pointed out, the main losses were from counter-battery fire. Gunners tended to stay in the line for longer, particularly in campaigns like Third Ypres. Their infantry unit would be withdrawn after a tough battle but the divisional artillery might well stay on for many weeks. Inevitably casualties would mount as each side's artillery sought to neutralise their opponent.

There were instances where gunners fought as infantry. The German spring offensives in 1918 for example. German infantry would get close enough to bring gunners under direct machine gun and rifle fire. Normally, the field artillery would engage the Germans with direct artillery fire but when the guns could not be got away and ran out of ammunition or were damaged, there were examples of gunners fighting with rifles and Lewis guns.

The nearest to guns going OTT was the follow-up of infantry assaults. Units of the RFA would be assigned to move forward as the attack progressed. This could bring them into visual range of small arms fire or make them vulnerable to German counter-barrages.

Robert

[Simon R]

Signaller Eric Cowling of D245 attended Lewis gun course 1918 - used against infantry and aeroplanes.

[Kathie]

2/Lt Arthur Dell was with 15th Siege Battery in September 1917 when he sustained GSW to back? He died at 5 Casualty Clearing Station on 5th Octob er 1917.

Why would an RGA officer have a gunshot wound? Where would he be close enough for someone to shoot him? I can understand shrapnel etc. Any ideas?

Kathie

[jhill]

2/Lt Arthur Dell was with 15th Siege Battery in September 1917 when he sustained GSW to back? He died at 5 Casualty Clearing Station on 5th Octob er 1917.

Why would an RGA officer have a gunshot wound? Where would he be close enough for someone to shoot him? I can understand shrapnel etc. Any ideas?

Kathie

I have noticed that the Casualty Clearing Stations often tend to describe any casualties other than accidents or disease cases as G.S.W. Sometimes it seems to depend on the medical officer keeping the records. For a while some are G.S.W. and others S.W. (shell wound ?); then for a few months every case seems to be G.S.W.

I presume most R.G.A. casualties would actually have been shell wounds.