steve fuller Posted 19 August , 2004 Share Posted 19 August , 2004 Hi all This is what I have on these men - can anyone add anything please? Name: HAYES, WILLIAM SAMUEL Initials: W S Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment: Bedfordshire Regiment Unit Text: 2nd Bn. Age: 30 Date of Death: 16/11/1917 Service No: 200569 Additional information: Son of Robert Henry and Elizabeth Hayes; husband of Adah Eliza Andrews (formerly Hayes), of 9, Britain St., Dunstable, Beds. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: III. E. 60. Cemetery: BAILLEUL COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION (NORD) Was No 4399, entered Gallipoli 10/8/15. 1 year RF's before the war. Name: BATES, GEORGE Initials: G Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Lance Corporal Regiment: Bedfordshire Yeomanry Unit Text: 1st/1st Age: 25 Date of Death: 18/06/1918 Service No: 30447 Additional information: Son of George and Mary Ruth Bates, of Grange Mill, Heath and Reach, Leighton Buzzard.. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. B. 16 Cemetery: ABBEVILLE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION Robert & Thomas Bates joined with him, all Beds yeomanry. Anything on them; unsure whether they were related, but possible? Thank you very much Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 19 August , 2004 Share Posted 19 August , 2004 SDGW: Hayes - Died of wounds - Enlisted in Dunstable Bates - Died of wounds - Enlisted in Bedford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 19 August , 2004 Share Posted 19 August , 2004 Steve...............George, Thomas & Robert were indeed brothers. Robert was the eldest, George was three years younger & Thomas was two years younger than George. Both George & Thomas appear on the Heath & Reach Memorial. Strangely enough whilst their parents appear as next of kin for George's CWGC entry, they don't appear on Thomas'. Thomas died in December 1917, I believe he was a POW when he died (although I haven't been able to verify this yet). The Heath & Reach Memorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 20 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 August , 2004 Steve...............George, Thomas & Robert were indeed brothers. Robert was the eldest, George was three years younger & Thomas was two years younger than George. Both George & Thomas appear on the Heath & Reach Memorial. Strangely enough whilst their parents appear as next of kin for George's CWGC entry, they don't appear on Thomas'. Thomas died in December 1917, I believe he was a POW when he died (although I haven't been able to verify this yet). The Heath & Reach Memorial Thanks Lee. Hi Will. Saw them in 2 articles in the LBO, (courtesy of Raster Scanning) listing H&R men who'd enlisted. My Gt Gramps (in signature) lived in Lanes End H&R pre 1909 & married an H&R gal (Ellen Hack). Was looking thru the names, compared them to Medal Roll & Diary pages Ive got and was surprised how many on the list didnt make it through the war. So 2 of them fell and 1 survived? Im sure I went to school with a H&R Bates ... Only a thought; did Thomas's marry and his wife move before the Final Verification Form in 1920 perhaps? I say that as my GG's wife and children left H&R before 1920 and didnt do the form, so werent listed as his NOK either. Has the new POW database shown him up at all? What brought you to find this out, or where did you get it from (if OK to ask?)? And is it OK to copy the H&R memorial pic for my personal file pse (live away at the moment, so cant get one myself!)? Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 20 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 August , 2004 SDGW: Hayes - Died of wounds - Enlisted in Dunstable Bates - Died of wounds - Enlisted in Bedford Lee. Noticed your signature - dont suppose you have 2nd Beds diaries from end May 1918 onwards do you please??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 20 August , 2004 Share Posted 20 August , 2004 Steve - Sorry but no, but the Beds Council Archives will have copies (for a price). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 20 August , 2004 Share Posted 20 August , 2004 Only a thought; did Thomas's marry and his wife move before the Final Verification Form in 1920 perhaps? I say that as my GG's wife and children left H&R before 1920 and didnt do the form, so werent listed as his NOK either. Has the new POW database shown him up at all? What brought you to find this out, or where did you get it from (if OK to ask?)? And is it OK to copy the H&R memorial pic for my personal file pse (live away at the moment, so cant get one myself!)? Cheers Steve Steve.............Quite possible that Thomas was married & listed his wife as NOK rather than his parents. My research on the H&R casualties is at a very early stage so I don't have any details to back this up but it's a reasonable assumption which I will in due course be looking into. Unfortunately Mick Mill's POW database doesn't list Thomas (I had the pleasure of being one of Micks scribes for that project). The basis for me thinking he was a POW is his place of burial & the date of his death. Thomas was buried in Le Cateau Military Cemetery. Le Cateau was in German hands from August 1914 up until October 1918. It is my understanding that the vast majority of the British casualties buried here were done so by the Germans & a lot of them are from the 1914 battlefield. Obviously Thomas isn't one of them as he died in December 1917. Some POW's are known to be buried here & I think he was amongst them. Le Cateau under German occupation was a busy place as it was a railhead & a large hospital centre so POW's in transit or hospitalised would I guess have been fairly common. Heath & Reach is fairly local to me (I live in South Milton Keynes as opposed to Lee who lives in the North of the City - although if you ask him the same question he'd tell you he lived in Wolverton & I in Bletchley - a little Will/Lee MK joke there) I have been researching the casualties on local memorials for about five or so years (for a new city MK has a surprising amount as there have been a fair number of villages & small towns absorbed into the Undemocratic Republic of MK - another MK joke). I have been slowly working outwards & geographically have now researched to a greater or lesser degree the fallen of Bow Brickhill, Bradwell, Cranfield, Drayton Parslow, Emberton, Fenny Stratford, Great Brickhill, Heath & Reach, Little Brickhill, Loughton, Marston Mortaine, Mursley, Newport Pagnell, Newton Longville, Old Bletchley, Old Wolverton, Simpson, Soulbury, Stewkley, Stony Stratford, Wavendon, Whaddon, Willen, Woburn Sands, Wolverton & Woughton on the Green. This equates to about 800 casualties. As I said my research on the Heath & Reach chaps as been fairly basic so far. For Thomas & George it has been the case of cross referencing CWGC, SDGW & 1901 Census information. Once I have gathered this basic info I start on the newspaper archives, parish registers & local historical publications in the Milton Keynes library (which I must say is great for local history research). Problem is on each little Sunday drive with the kids I find another memorial to research & increase the number of men to find out about.................The wife thinks this Great War lark has become a bit of an obsession (Taking her to Ypres for our honeymoon might have been a bit of a give away) but at least she knows where I am & what I'm up to Help yourself to the piccy. If you want I'll get you a close up of the panel showing George & Thomas' names..........Shame you didn't post a week or so ago as I was up there taking a photo of the opposite panel for another one of the Pals on the forum but I'll be back up that way within the next few days. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 21 August , 2004 Share Posted 21 August , 2004 (I live in South Milton Keynes as opposed to Lee who lives in the North of the City - although if you ask him the same question he'd tell you he lived in Wolverton & I in Bletchley - a little Will/Lee MK joke there) You just couldn't leave it alone could you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 21 August , 2004 Share Posted 21 August , 2004 You just couldn't leave it alone could you! Do I ever .............Nice to see you back posting here Mate...........Hope the new job is going OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 22 August , 2004 Share Posted 22 August , 2004 New job going great (I get every 7th week off AND get paid!), money starting to come back in - so the debts from the last 3 years are getting paid off - and as soon as I can afford it I'm transferring a long way from MK STEVE If you haven't got Beds County Council Archives e-mail address, here is it archive@csd.bedfordshire.gov.uk There are really helpful, so give them a go for the War Diaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 22 August , 2004 Share Posted 22 August , 2004 Steve. According to the BIY records of war service. 1371 (wrongly annotated as 137, MIC online) Pte G Bates, later 30447 L/Cpl Bates, sailed with the regiment 9th June 1915. Like SDGW he is listed as Died of wounds on 16-6-18 (two days earlier than CWGC). There is no mention of the other brothers serving overseas with the BIY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 22 August , 2004 Share Posted 22 August , 2004 and as soon as I can afford it I'm transferring a long way from MK I've just revoked your MK passport............your picture has been circulated amongst the border guards & a 4000 peso bounty will been put on your head should you ever manage to get over the barbed wire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 22 August , 2004 Share Posted 22 August , 2004 There is no mention of the other brothers serving overseas with the BIY. Steve just to add what Raster has said, whilst I don't know whether Robert ever served abroad or with what unit if he did, Thomas died whilst with the Kings Liverpool Regt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 23 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 23 August , 2004 Hi Guys. Soz about the delay, been away from the web for the weekend! John; thanks again - whats BIY? Will & Lee; 2 MK-ites eh? Born & Bred LB myself, & lived MK for 10 years until 5 ago. Know Bletchley well; ma still lives in Westminster Drive! Lee; thanks about the 2nd diary. Have 'met' Beds archives & Nigel, but thanks mate. Visiting him soon. If I lived back in MK, Id prob live at the archives though... Will; Thanks for that. Wow - busy man eh?! And a fine choice of honeymoon venue Id say! I hear the scenery is breathtaking, though maybe not the most romantic ...??!! The research must be pretty consuming - sounds incredible. I understand how it takes over though! Should be focusing on my relative, but just cant help looking into the things I come across I guess youve trawled the LBO records already, but Im off there soon, so can look up anything for you if you like? Let me know if / what you need? Hadnt thought of the MK libray at all - whats there (dont say students, OAP's & books either!)? Cheers chaps Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 23 August , 2004 Share Posted 23 August , 2004 Will; Thanks for that. Wow - busy man eh?! And a fine choice of honeymoon venue Id say! I hear the scenery is breathtaking, though maybe not the most romantic ...??!! The research must be pretty consuming - sounds incredible. I understand how it takes over though! Should be focusing on my relative, but just cant help looking into the things I come across I guess youve trawled the LBO records already, but Im off there soon, so can look up anything for you if you like? Let me know if / what you need? Hadnt thought of the MK libray at all - whats there (dont say students, OAP's & books either!)? Cheers chaps Steve Steve.............Should be able to get the photo by the end of the week...........I thought Ypres was a perfect place for a honeymoon..........I can think of no where better to spend a cold wet October week (In all fairness to me I did suggest Paris first but Mrs O'B said she wanted to go somewhere a bit different.........so I took the opportunity with both hands!!!)...................The research is sort of like one of the children...........always around, loved to bits but sometimes bloody annoying.............I reckon I should just about have it finished by retirement age..........but I am trying to get my kids interested just in case I have to hand the baton on.............The library is pretty good in MK............They have a decent selection of research books (National Roll of Honour for the Local Area & local employers, publications on the villages around about, parish records & that sort of local history stuff) They also have the SDGW on cd rom which is handy. For me the most useful for my research has been the microfilms for the 3 local newspapers (North Bucks Times, Wolverton Express & The Bucks Standard)...........These have been a goldmine for filling in the stories of these men I'm researching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 23 August , 2004 Share Posted 23 August , 2004 John; thanks again - whats BIY? Sorry Steve. Bedfordshire Imperial Yeomanry. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 24 August , 2004 Share Posted 24 August , 2004 I've just revoked your MK passport............your picture has been circulated amongst the border guards & a 4000 peso bounty will been put on your head should you ever manage to get over the barbed wire Who said anything about over the wire....I might just go under it OOOPS, I said that a bit loud now you know my plans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 24 August , 2004 Share Posted 24 August , 2004 I've just revoked your MK passport............your picture has been circulated amongst the border guards & a 4000 peso bounty will been put on your head should you ever manage to get over the barbed wire Who said anything about over the wire....I might just go under it OOOPS, I said that a bit loud now you know my plans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 25 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2004 John; 'Imperial' - of course; thanks John. Just a quicky; have you come across Nathan and Albert Payne in 5th who were KIA together 15/8/1915? Thinking of your database - imagine youve got it already, but thought Id ask as I stumbled avross them the other night. Will; thanks for your offer. Look forward to it! Cheers chaps Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 Should be able to get the photo by the end of the week Here you are Steve as promised. The panel containing George & Thomas' names Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 & a close up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 John; 'Imperial' - of course; thanks John. Just a quicky; have you come across Nathan and Albert Payne in 5th who were KIA together 15/8/1915? Thinking of your database - imagine youve got it already, but thought Id ask as I stumbled avross them the other night. Will; thanks for your offer. Look forward to it! Cheers chaps Steve Sjt Nathan and Corp Albert were brothers from Luton (2 Beech Rd). Cheers Nathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 Sjt Ronald Mc Cormick who lived at the Sailsbury Arms, Wellington St, Luton, wrote to a lady in St Albans. " you will have seen by the papers that we lost a lot of men on that terrible Sunday. I can't make out how I am alive to write this, as shells and bullets were coming all around me. There was only a handful of Bedfords with Capt Baker, including myself and Albert Payne and Nathan, his brother. We were right in front of the battalion, Capt Baker had just given the order to fix our bayonets, when a shell burst and shattered his left arm. He told us to hang on there till he could send more reinforcements up, and Sjt Payne bound his arm and sent him back with Pte Findon, who was wounded going back, Capt Baker must have been hit again as he was killed. So we lost one of the best officers who ever donned khaki. We held on as we were ordered for 3 hours, and then a party of the London Rgt came up with a Capt Cowley, and over the ridge we went like fury. The Turks did not stop to ask us how we were in health, they ran like the devil and we shot them as they ran. We took up a position about a thousand yards up this gully from where we started, and we had not been there long before we heard the Turks coming back, and the officer thought they were going to surrender, as they were jabbering to each other and making lots of noise. He spoke to them in their own language, but had no answer, so he gave us the order to fire, and they fell like corn; but they had got more men coming round the top of the gully on both sides, and we should have been surrounded, so we on the left were ordered to retire, while those on the right kept up the fire. I managed to get back with several others, but Albert and Nathan Payne must have fallen, as they were on the right, and a land mine went off when we got over the ridge. If Albert had of lived I think he would have got something, as he was a hero. All he troubled about was his young brother Nathan" Interesting that Albert was looking after his young brother who was senior in rank to him. Cheers. John. Albert Payne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 27 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 27 August , 2004 Thanks Will; hope you didnt put yourself out mate? John; this was the article I saw that made me ask if youd heard about them! I liked the rank part too! Lovely stuff Will & John; looking into some of the H&R / LB boys as we speak; do you want the snippets I get for your 'databases'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 27 August , 2004 Share Posted 27 August , 2004 Thanks Will; hope you didnt put yourself out mate? Will & John; looking into some of the H&R / LB boys as we speak; do you want the snippets I get for your 'databases'? Steve..............It was no problem at all...............glad to have been of help.......................Anything you come across on the H&R boys would be gratefully received Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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