J Banning Posted 31 August , 2012 Share Posted 31 August , 2012 I am looking into a man who served in the RFA from 1916-18. My man was awarded the SWB and is listed as Gr. (Gunner). The King's Certificate of Discharge also lists his rank as Gunner however the Medal Index Card and appropriate Medal Rolls list him as Drv. (Driver). Can anyone offer any insights into this discrepancy? Was it common for RFA men to hold both ranks over the course of the war? As I understand things, Gunner and Driver were both ranks. I feel I should know the answer to this but am afraid to say I don't! Any help gratefully received as ever. Thanks Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hastings Posted 31 August , 2012 Share Posted 31 August , 2012 Evening Jeremy As an ex-Gunner I should know this, but I'm not 100%. As I understood it all entrants to the Royal Regiment, be it RGA/RFA/RHA joined as 'Gunners', however if they were tasked in training/at their Battery to 'drive' the Gun and Limber horses, they were then titled as 'Drivers' - responsible for two horses. The ranks were at the same level (I cannot tell you if the pay was the same), but I think the 'Gunner' title on his SWB is 'generic' for want of a phrase, whereas the 'Driver' title on his MIC is more specific to him as an individual soldier - if that makes sense? i.e. the SWB purely identifies him as part of the Royal Regiment whereas the MIC has a more accurate titling for this particular soldier. As I said I'm not 100% but that's how I understood it. Someone on the forum who is a WW1 expert on the RA may have a different answer. All the best Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 1 September , 2012 Share Posted 1 September , 2012 Hello Jeremy I think that it was fairly common for men to cross over between "serving the guns" and "serving the horses". In any case there would have been a certain amount of cross-training, so as to make replacements easier in the field. The pay rates for Gunner and Driver RFA were the same, although in the RHA Gunners got a penny a day more than Drivers. Establishment tables for RGA Heavy Batteries show "Gunners as Drivers" rather than simply Drivers. I would go along with Jim's explanation. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 1 September , 2012 Share Posted 1 September , 2012 Hi Another query along the same lines,...... My grandfather enlisted RFA Aug 1914 and went to France May 1915 as a Driver with 12th Division Ammunition Column. He was compulsorily transferred to RGA in June 1916 and renumbered. He still continued to work as a "Driver" - several "discipline" entries on his 1918 B103's are horse related. His 1915 Star has him as a "Driver" with his "original" RFA number whilst his BWM and Victory Medal have him as a "Gunner RA" with his post June 1916 number. Did they not have a rank title "Driver" in RGA? Steve Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 1 September , 2012 Share Posted 1 September , 2012 Off on a slight tangent - I'm sure that I recall 1RHA in the 1960's calling their gunners "Troopers" presumably because of the historic cavalry connection, and because everybody in the army wants to be different from anybody else ! Was "Trooper" used in the RHA in the Great War ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hastings Posted 1 September , 2012 Share Posted 1 September , 2012 Never heard of that one, but I have a friend who is RHA and works for the CRA so I'll ask him and get back to you, unless someone on the forum can ascertain for you before hand. Cheers Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 1 September , 2012 Share Posted 1 September , 2012 Maybe it was restricted to King's and Chestnut Troops ? Or mebbe the old memory is playing me false . . . but their CO at the time, David something or other, was a bit pompous. Could have been his idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 September , 2012 Share Posted 1 September , 2012 This is an intriguing area. I am not an RA or RE expert but it seems to me that they vied with each other for cussedness, in an effort to be both different and not to miss out. KR 1914 lists the only RANKS [as opposed to appointments] at the bottom of the food chain, as Trooper, gunner, driver, sapper, pioneer RE and private [no Guardsman, Rifleman or the like]. So an infantry drummer for example was regimentally known as such, paid extra, was not "rank and file" but held rank as private. Both RA and RE have two RANKS in the list. The RA appointments [listed in Pay Regs as being sufficiently different as to attract different pay] are saddler*, smiths* of all types, wheeler/fitter*, musician [sic], trumpeter, gunner and driver. There are tiny differences across the three varieties of RA. Standing Orders RA [sORA] make clear that all of that long list were to be referred to as the titles in the list, regardless of the fact that the army had all of them except drivers down as gunners. * signifies extra pay. In 1933 SORA reiterated that "tradesmen" were to be referred to as their trade title, but differentiated the group Driver, Driver Internal Combustion, Musician and Signaller to be referred to officially as "Gunner [Driver] etc. The case of the RE lower orders was slightly different. Their tradesmen were smiths* of all sorts, bandsman, bugler, trumpeter, driver. The sapper was, in effect, a man who was better qualified than a pioneer, and thus paid [often substantially] more. All of the above carefully avoids the mysterious and esoteric world of the acting bombardier RA versus the lance-corporal RE, and the even more arcane bombardier RA and 2nd corporal RE, both of which were extra ranks in the food chain compared with all others except ASC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 1 September , 2012 Share Posted 1 September , 2012 Was "Trooper" used in the RHA in the Great War ? Not in any official documents outside the RA but, as I said earlier, they did get extra pay. There was no King's Troop in WW! - it was an invention of King George VI when the "Riding Troop" was formed in c1947. Also, everyone else in the Army referred to the Chestnut Troop by its proper name - "A" Battery RHA. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 2 September , 2012 Share Posted 2 September , 2012 Apropos drivers and RGA. While the title, or should it be appointment, driver was directly related to the horse, it was given to those who rode horses or in the case of ASC rode on a wagon. In the RGA the gunners who lead the horses were on their feet. I think this would have only applied to the 60 pounder batteries in the early part of the war as the heavy horses were later replaced by tractors. I think there is a loose parallel with the German army which had 'field' and 'foot' artillery, the equivalent of RFA and RGA; I don't know if they used different terms for the soldiers involved. Thus, I suggest there were no drivers in the RGA. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 September , 2012 Share Posted 2 September , 2012 Not in any official documents outside the RA but, as I said earlier, they did get extra pay. There was no King's Troop in WW! - it was an invention of King George VI when the "Riding Troop" was formed in c1947. Also, everyone else in the Army referred to the Chestnut Troop by its proper name - "A" Battery RHA. Ron Ron, my impression was that The Riding Troop was renamed King's Troop in 1947 and therefore The Riding Troop existed before that date. My further impression is that The Riding Troop was, in effect, the Duty Riding Troop, a role fulfilled by rotation. I imagine it was an artefact of the mechanisation of the army between the wars "but we need someone to fire the salutes, can we dig out enough 13pdrs from somewhere?". I would like someone to put me straight on this one, its a long standing niggle. Oh, and there were indeed drivers RGA, paid one shilling, two and a half pence per day in 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 2 September , 2012 Share Posted 2 September , 2012 It was a suggestion! Did these drivers deal with horses or tractors? Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjjobson Posted 2 September , 2012 Share Posted 2 September , 2012 A Driver RA, was one trained to drive a horse drawn vehicle, including gun teams and ammunition wagons. When the guns were in action, the drivers remained at the wagon lines, and assisted in the supply of ammunition. They were also available to replace casualties, so had to have a grounding in gun drill and duties of the various gun numbers. Whilst in the wagon lines they were under the direct control of their gun coverer, who in turn was under control of the Battery Sergeant Major. During WW1 Drivers (of whatever classification) were often simply referred to as Drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 September , 2012 Share Posted 2 September , 2012 So what was a gun coverer pray ........... I trust nothing like a BBQ cover coverer? Which I have just done, probably last time this year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 2 September , 2012 Share Posted 2 September , 2012 As best I can tell, horse-drawn RGA batteries had Drivers, but those that were tractor-drawn (i.e. motor drawn) did not as those were driven by ASC Motor Transport personnel who were attached to the battery. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 2 September , 2012 Share Posted 2 September , 2012 Gun Coverer was a replacement for the no.1 of a gun crew IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjjobson Posted 2 September , 2012 Share Posted 2 September , 2012 Sorry Grumpy, my fault for being too close to the subject, a coverer is infact the Sub Section Second in Command, usually a bombardier. Prior to 1914 the coverer was in charge of the section wagon in the firing battery wagons. Having taken the wagon into action, he returned with the teams to the first line wagons, where he was employed in the supply of ammunition as directed by the Wagon Line Officer. The whole Gunner Driver saga gets quite involved especially if you delve further back into RA history, but that isn't really a subject for this forum. Phil Squirrel Surely you meant Detachment not crew RA guns are manned (even in these days of PC) by detachments, Royal Navy guns have crews. Sorry, me being pedantic again. Phil Maybe it was restricted to King's and Chestnut Troops ? Or mebbe the old memory is playing me false . . . but their CO at the time, David something or other, was a bit pompous. Could have been his idea. Stoppage Drill I think you are thinking of David Bain, and even he wouldn't have condoned the use of "Trooper" in place of Gunner. I'm seeing him in October, if I remember I will ask him. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Banning Posted 4 September , 2012 Author Share Posted 4 September , 2012 Thanks to all who helped, especially Jim & Ron. I'm glad it wasn't such a dunce-like question as I first feared! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 4 September , 2012 Share Posted 4 September , 2012 Stoppage Drill I think you are thinking of David Bain, and even he wouldn't have condoned the use of "Trooper" in place of Gunner. I'm seeing him in October, if I remember I will ask him. Phil Whoops ! Not really any more pompous than any other donkey-walloping Dropshort. Only teasing. My real feelings are summed up by Kipling's words - "The Guns ! Thank God, the guns!" Tell him I was at Monks Field the night Sgt Dunkley's sub took 100% casualties. April 66 IIRC ? Not forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 September , 2012 Share Posted 4 September , 2012 My earlier post seems to have been lost in cyberspace. It noted that Drivers "Heavy Artillery" [sic] could compete for driver's skill-at-arms badges crown, crossed whips, spur, under Clothing Regs 1914. Up to 4 prizes per unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 5 September , 2012 Share Posted 5 September , 2012 Surely you meant Detachment not crew RA guns are manned (even in these days of PC) by detachments, Royal Navy guns have crews. Phil Absolutely.......but... In more recent times a promotion requirement for NCO's was to attend a Crew Commanders Course. Then we had Crewman 2000 as the framework for trade qualification, so there are those in the Royal Artillery quite often get it wrong. it was probably some "pompous donkey-walloping Dropshort" at DRA. We will probably not need to worry after the Defence Review, lucky if we will have a gun sentry never mind a full detachment. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjjobson Posted 9 September , 2012 Share Posted 9 September , 2012 Ian You couldn't be more right, sadly! Still, my problem is I am a pureist, so can't help being a bit of a pedant on the matter. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 9 September , 2012 Share Posted 9 September , 2012 . Squirrel Surely you meant Detachment not crew RA guns are manned (even in these days of PC) by detachments, Royal Navy guns have crews. Sorry, me being pedantic again. Phil Mea Culpa! And me with a father who served in the RHA and an uncle who served in the RFA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullerTurner Posted 20 July , 2015 Share Posted 20 July , 2015 Just add further complexity...does anybody know what a "Gunner BH" in the RFA might be?? I'm a pretty well read ex-Gunner (RA and RHA) and I have never come across it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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