17th Manchesters - a history. UPDATE ......1 May publication date

[John_Hartley]

Over a decade's research has gone into writing this history of the battalion my grandfather and great uncle served with.

And I hear you saying "wasn't there a history written in the 1920s" and "didnt Mike Stedman write a history of the Manchester Pals a few years ago". Well, yes, there was and yes, he did.

I hope folk who might buy this book will find it a "good read". Part 1 of the book tells the story of battalion, in more detail than previously published, including accounts of the "not in battle" periods, using the war diary and personal accounts that have not previously seen the light of day.

Part 2 of the book will make it quite a hefty tome. Over the years, I've been able to identify almost all of the original "Pals" who went overseas with grandad in November 1915 and there are "mini-biographies" included for them. For most, it's been possible to recount who they were, where they lived, what they did for a living, what was their military service and what happened to them after the war.

17th Manchesters will be published by Reveille Press, around January 2013.

[Chris_Baker]

Well done, John. I am sure it will be a cracker.

[Marco]

One to look forward to, John!

Regards,

Marco

[BottsGreys]

Thanks for the "heads up" John. I, too, will be looking forward to it.

Chris

[aengland]

Thanks for the advanced notice.... the Christmas list grows ever bigger!

Andrew

[Mark Hone]

Did you manage to find anything on Private Frederick Harding who was killed on 1st July? He's one of my Bury Grammar School 'mystery men' for whom I've never managed to find an obituary or photograph. The family moved from the Bury area to Euxton near Chorley and he seems to have fallen through the net of having something published in a local newspaper.

Congratulations on your sterling work. Our other BGS 17th battalion man was Herbert Howarth, also killed on the first day of the Somme. I remember you commenting that he is one of the few 17th battalion men from 1st July to have a known grave.

[John_Hartley]

Mark

Nope, never found a obit. for Harding.

There was info on Howarth in the Bury Times, 19/8/16, but I presume you already have that.

John

[gallipian]

8643 frederick,sydney harding was reported wounded and missing at montauban on 1st/2nd july,a later report stated that he had died on this date,aged 24,son of frederick,james+florence harding,occupation bank clerk,religion weslyan,enlisted at the albert hall 3-9-14.

in a letter to the infantry records office,his father said he had recieved no news of his death and non about him being wounded or POW and no personal belongings had been recieved by him

residence "sunnymead"8 hamilton rd,whitefield

his brother victor lived at the same whitefield address,another brother william lived at 71 oak bank,blackley.

his mother florence[possibly sarah] took reciept of his medals on 18-10-1922

mack

[Ken Lees]

I am looking forward to the book, John. If it is as readable and informative as 'Not a Rotter..' it will be a fine addition to the creaking bookshelves.

[Mark Hone]

Thanks folks. I presume that you haven't come across a photo, Mack?

[gallipian]

sorry cant help with a picture mark,good luck

mack

[Bernard_Lewis]

Well done, John!

Bernard

[8055Bell]

Hi John,

I've used your Hellfire Corner webpage as a bible for my research and look forward to reading your book, particularly the mini-biographies.

My Dad's copy of the 'First Day' is signed by M Middlebrook. You may wish to consider providing signed copies for sale through this site? I would like my copy signed in apreciaition of your unrelenting research, but principally out of respect for our A Company grandfathers.

Tim

[John_Hartley]

Tim

Have we been in touch before?

I know I've had some contact with a descendent of Allan's in the past but suffered a major email crash many months back and lost quite a bit of information. Needless to say, I'm using quite a bit of his 1 July account that's at the Liddle Collection. By the by, I know he was living in Gatley when he give his "statement" to Martin Middlebrook and some while back I posted on the village forum there asking if anyone knew of family.

I'm currently trying to get a revised estimated publication date from Reveille Press (January seems to have slipped) and, of course, there'll be no problem getting you a signed copy.

John

[8055Bell]

Hi John,

We compared notes about 6 years ago. We're too late to add anything to your first edition, but if you send me a PM I will send you my email. We may find something extra for the second edition.

The best contemporary evidence I have is from a 1976 BBC interview between Pt Alan Arthur Bell (k/a Grandad) and M Middlebrook.

REEL 1 Recollections of enlistment into 17th Bn, Manchester Regt, 2/9/1914: formation of companies based on staff of local employers; walks to increase fitness prior to enlistment; training. Recollections of attack 17th Bn, Manchester Regt on Triangle Point, Montauban sector, Somme area, France, 1/7/1916: occupying trench close to artillery battery; arrangements as bomber; surrender of party of German troops; consolidation of position at Triangle Point; effects of drinking German coffee; reasons for enlistment; question of treatment of German machine gunners attempting to surrender at Montauban. Wound and subsequent discharge, 12/10/1916. I was a young teeanager when I last heard Grandad's voice, so it was amazing to hear him again. I think it was even more astounding for my Dad and Auntie Elsie.

Part of the transcript is published in Joshua Levine's Forgotten Voices book. It confirms grandad was one of the section of bombers at Triangle Point, where they held out in the counter-attack until bombed out when they ran out of grenades. One of only three to return.

Tim

[John_Hartley]

Tim

PM on its way. Yes, probably too late to get any changes to the manuscript. But, if there is a wartime photo of Allan, I'd try to get that in.

John

[8055Bell]

John,

I have never heard of the LIddle Collection before. Is this the original transcripts of the M Middlebrook interviews?

I need to visit Leeds in March and may find time to go to the University. If you have any extracts, it would be great to share it.

We're looking forward to your book even more now!

Tim

[8055Bell]

John,

I have a HI-Res scanned photo, but can't scan for a few days. I will try though.

Thanks

Tim

[John_Hartley]

Tim

Great about the photo. Many thanks - I'll do my best to get it in.

You need to pre-book for Liddle - they then have your name on the Library's reception desk and give you a pass. The document is in the Middlebrooke file in the collection but I can't recall exactly what its format is.

John

[8055Bell]

Here's a photo

Private A A Bell 8055 17th Btn Manchester Regiment A Company III Platoon

Present in Montauban on 1/7/16, taking temporary possession of Triangle Point before being bombed out and spending time between lines in a shell hole. Wounded by shrapnel in assault at Flers in October 1916. Returned to Blighty.

Married Alice Brown after the War. Four children, Alan, Elsie, Margaret and Leslie had numerous grandchildren including me.

I imagine John knows most of this, but It's good to leave a record on line for Arthur's great (+) grand children.

Tim

[John_Hartley]

Tim

I know form your email that he was known by his middle name of Arthur but I'm confused about the spelling of his first name. You have it as Alan - the more usual spelling - but my notes have it as Allan, which is what I've used in the book. And I presume I'm wrong - apologies

John.

[8055Bell]

I think Allan, but I'd best ask my Dad to be sure!

Tim

[John_Hartley]

Cheers, mate

[8055Bell]

John,

Grandad was know Allan Arthur Bell.

Apperently he was known as Allan at work at Manch. City Council Treasurers Dept. and Arthur by his family. Hence, it's fine for him to be called Allan in your book.

The Medal Roll refers to Pte Arthur Bell and we can assume this is how he was known in service. Therefore, a change to Arthur in your 2nd edition may be appropriate.

Happy New Year

Tim

Sorry to keep referring to the 2nd editition when the 1st is at the brink.

[8055Bell]

Hi John,

Daughter No. 2 is transcribing the IWM Interview with A A Bell. I will email a copy to you when we've checked it. I don't think it adds much to what you have, but better for you to judge that.

Your advice on posting the notes on here would be appreciated. I can't imagine my daughter will breach copyright by me publishing her great grandfather's story, but don't want to confront IWM.

Tim