Guest dibob Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 Hi, Have been trying to find out where George (Henry) Doe died. Family sources have said he died in France in 1916 & he was in the Royal Artillery but my other thread & research on these grounds have been fruitless so on the suggestion of other kind members I am starting this new thread on the basis he wasn't in the army but maybe the Navy? His details are as follows: Born Kensington around 1894/6 to Thomas Joseph Edward Doe & Ada Lily Doe nee Buckingham. Any help or suggestions gratefully received. Thanks Di Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 Di, Could he be: KP/61 Leading Seaman George Henry DOE 188th Bde Machine Gun Coy RND who was killed on 13 November 1916 and is remembered on the Thiepval Memorial? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dibob Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 Ian, Could be, where did you get the info - need to try & find some other details like parents if poss? Thanks Di Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 Di 1901 census has your man living in what appears to be sowemthing like "Branstone Street", Kensington. Also there are father Thomas (29), mother Ada (29), sister Ada (10), brother Thomas (8), sister Ellen (4), brother Albert (2) and sister Louisa who is just a few months old. SN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dibob Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 Stephen, Thanks, yes thats him & his family, Albert is my grandad. Would just really like to know if he's buried somewhere in France, seems a shame there is no-one to remember him. Di Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 KP 61 Leading Seaman George Henry Doe, CGM. Di, have a look at the London Gazette issue 29180 published 1st June 1915 “The Following awards have been made to men of the Royal Naval Division To receive the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal Able Seaman George Henry Doe, KP/61 Howe Battalion” [this would be for services at Gallipoli] Best regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 Di I would agree with Ian’s posting that this is the most likely CWGC entry to be the person you’re looking fro. The 188th Brigade was part of the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division, so designated in July 1916 when it was transferred to the Western Front from Gallipoli.. Around the time of George’s death, the brigade had been part of the final phase of the Somme offensive, advancing along the River Ancre. From 1st October to 11th November, the unit was involved in the Battle of Ancre Heights. Other references can be found to the Battle of the Ancre, from 13-18 November 1916. A good description of the events around this date, including some casualty figures, can be found at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kylet1/ancre.htm It seems likely that George was one of the casualties of this action and so to answer your original question, he probably died around the town of Beaumont Hamel. SN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 Being part of the RND, would his service papers have survived or since they served under the army, were they grouped together with those lost in WW2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dibob Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 Michael Thanks, your info ties in with Stephens if he transferred from Gallipolli to France. Where would I find the Gazette records? Sorry, but the military side of family research is still fairly new, very steep learning curve. Stephen Thanks for all the info, & for the message, its definitely something I will look into. This is definitely more exciting research than just getting certificates & everyone on this site is so helpful Chris, I'm going to sound really dim again but I'm not sure what you mean. Thanks again to everyone, this is the best forum I've been on since starting my family history!!! Di Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 Di go to www.london-gazette.co.uk and search the World War 1 Gazettes. Use a searcdh criteria of "doe" and limit the search to 1915 and you'll get a few hits. Choose edition 29180, as Michael referred to earlier, and you'll see the edition with George mentioned SN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 Di, this page and this one on the companion site, "The long, long trail" will explain what I am talking about. I thought that since the RND was part of the Admiralty, there might be a chance the records were held separately from those held by the War Office, and therefore still exist. Hopefully a RND expert can give an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 (edited) As far as I know the records of the men of the Naval Brigades of the Royal Naval Division are held at the Fleet Air Arm Museum see http://www.fleetairarm.com/index2.htm then click on Research George Henry Doe’s number KP/61 indicates that he was a Kitchener recruit to the army who was transferred to the RND on 10 Sep 1914. The army had too many recruits answer their call all at the same time and by coincidence, the Admiralty wanted extra men to make up its Naval Brigades to Divisional strength; Churchill asked for 4000 men and Kitchener gave him just over 3100. The ‘K’ in George’s number = Kitchener and the ‘P’ = Palace as in Crystal Palace the RND Depot where his transfer was effected. According to John H. Morcombe the KP numbers are from KP/1 to KP/1002 The LonGaz says that when he received the CGM he was serving in the Howe Battalion. When the RND first established its Machine Gun Companies it did so by withdrawing the existing Machine gun sections from the battalions, so the 188th Brigade Company would have included the former Howe Battalion machine gun section. At the Battle of the Ancre the orders were that with each battalion was to go a subsection of the Brigade Machine Gun Company, so it seems more than likely that the Howe Battalion took with it that subsection which had previously been its own, including George Henry Doe. On 13th November 1916 the front line of the 63rd RN Division was from left to right 1st RMLI, Howe, Hawke & Hood. A very strong German redoubt opposite the Hawke Battalion was not subdued at that time and was therefore able to fire into the flank of the advancing Howe Battalion; very few of the first line reached their first objective and in insufficient numbers to hold any significant portion of it. Though the battle was eventually won, George must have been one of those who fell in the very first hours. John Morcombe gives the Howe Battalion fatalities as 119 and those of the 188th Brigade Machine gun Company as 19. The numbers of wounded, missing etc were huge: “In the 188th Brigade the losses were equally severe, though the four commanding officers survived to lead out the remains of their battalions. With Commander Ramsay Fairfax there came back of the Howe Battalion only Sub-Lieutenant Forrester and less than 100 men.” Douglas Jerrold’s history ‘The Royal Naval Division’ The map below [from Len Sellers’ “RND” magazine, No.16, March 2001] shows the battlefield and I think it likely that George may have fallen at or before the Green Line, But that is just my speculation Very best wishes for your continued research Michael D.R. Edited 26 August , 2004 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 Sorry if the above map has turned out a bit grey Try the diagram below Taken from Len Sellers’ highly recommended book ‘The Hood Battalion’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dibob Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 Thanks to you all, I will certainly follow up all the leads & let you know how I get on. Thanks again Di Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 Ian, Could be, where did you get the info - need to try & find some other details like parents if poss? Thanks Di Apologies I have been stomping around Europe - Commonwealth War Graves website is where I found the info. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 Di, I hope his service papers still exist and you can see them. Best of luck to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 RND records are kept as 2 sided record cards on microfiche at the NA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linge Posted 27 August , 2004 Share Posted 27 August , 2004 Di I should have remembered this when I initially mentioned Geogre Henry Doe of RND to you. We have a copy of John Morcombe's book "If you are alive speak if dead don't bother" In it he lists Naval and Marine Battalion Casualties of the 63rd (RN) Division at the Battle of the Ancre (13th-15th November 1916). George Henry Doe is listed under casualties of the 188th Brigade Machine Gun Company. he has no known grave therefore is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial he was aged 22 years. My husband and I are compiling a database with photos and information on as many as possible of the 72,000 men commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. for this project John Morcombe kindly gave us information on the Naval Men on Thiepval the info on George Henry Doe is as follows: Kitchener P61 Leading Seaman George Henry Doe CGM, Mentioned in Despatches RNVR 188th Brigade Machine Gun Company 13th November 1916 Wounded and Missing assumed Died of Wounds Howe UK leave party 26/2/1916 FGCM Striking a soldier 4/10/16 Disrated to Leading Seaman from Petty Officer Mentioned in Despatches 5/8/15 p7667 Hope this is some help Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dibob Posted 28 August , 2004 Share Posted 28 August , 2004 Thanks Pam, Thats brilliant, I haven't actually isolated George Henry as my Doe, but have sent for the birth cert you found on bmd to confirm. I have found out that a relative might have a photo of him, if I find anything else about him, do you want me to let you know? Sounds as though you have a lifetimes work on your hands!! Thanks again Di Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linge Posted 28 August , 2004 Share Posted 28 August , 2004 Di We would love to include any pictures and information that you want to share with the project. If you want to email us directly then please use pam@klinge.demon.co.uk Good luck Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 29 August , 2004 Share Posted 29 August , 2004 As a brief top-up to Pam's post above, John Morcombe's book also informs that George's medals [14-15 Star, Victory & British War] were sent to his father, so they may still be around in the extended family somewhere Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dibob Posted 2 September , 2004 Share Posted 2 September , 2004 Just to update all those who helped me find George Doe - I now have his birth certificate as Henry George so I am confident all the info you all gave is for the correct person. Thank you so much for all your help Di Pam, I am still trying to find the relative with the photos etc. will email you when I have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linge Posted 2 September , 2004 Share Posted 2 September , 2004 Di We look forward to an email when you locate the photo etc. It's great that another Thiepval man with no next of kin info is again reunited with his family. Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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