WW1 Grenades both British and Enemy.

[JMB1943]

2 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

As the box and the stencil are repro, can you say it's authentic?

Gunner,

Those details seem to have been copied from the authentic box of Mills Grenades supplied to the Belgian Army in 1923, and shown in the photo posted in the thread on March 5 by @14276265.

Regards,

JMB

[Gunner Bailey]

14 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Gunner,

Those details seem to have been copied from the authentic box of Mills Grenades supplied to the Belgian Army in 1923, and shown in the photo posted in the thread on March 5 by @14276265.

Regards,

JMB

I cant help. I only have notes on WW1 production. Post War Exports are off my map.

Edited 22 June by Gunner Bailey

[14276265]

On 18/06/2024 at 19:42, JMB1943 said:

If T = Trotyl (TNT), what then does S signify? Remembering that ammonium chloride ( used in smelling salts) was known as sal ammoniac, could S = Sal(t)?

 

 

JMB,

 

Very close. T is Tolite, S is Salpêtre. Tolite was the French term for TNT and salpêtre indicating ammonium nitrate.

 

In British terminology saltpetre was used solely for potassium nitrate (Chile saltpetre for sodium nitrate), but the French appear to have used salpêtre generically for various inorganic nitrate salts.

 

 

 

 

265

[JMB1943]

265,

Thank you very much for that info!!

By coincidence, today was the afternoon that I sent off an email requesting the help of the Royal Military Museum, Brussels.

Given the general chronic understaffing of museums these days, I had resigned myself to a very long wait or even no response; now any reply will just be a bonus.

Regards,

JMB

[Gunner Bailey]

As this was an export order I wonder if the explosive mix was requested by Belgium for overseas service, such as the Belgian African colonies? Would it be better in very humid locations?

[Stereoview Paul]

I thought you may like to see this image of bomb training from 1915. not sure if he is holding a Battie grenade here, but related images have shown a Battie grenade.

[battle of loos]

good morning,

in the grenade pockets, we can imagine cylindrical Battye grenades.

This is not the subject but I discover an individual tool holder attached to the soldier's back on the left.
So what is its exact model?

thank's.

michel

[JMB1943]

4 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

As this was an export order I wonder if the explosive mix was requested by Belgium for overseas service, such as the Belgian African colonies? Would it be better in very humid locations?

Gunner,

From my reading, the original oxidiser in the mixture with TNT was ammonium nitrate; this salt is VERY hygroscopic and is not suitable for use in the humid climate of Mesopotamia, where the British Army was also fighting.

It was replaced in 1918 by the relatively non-hygroscopic salt barium nitrate, in the 20:80 mixture and became the standard filler for ALL Mills Grenades. As such, it would not have been a special order but of course would have been entirely suitable for use in the Belgian Congo etc.

Regards,

JMB

 

[14276265]

21 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

From my reading, the original oxidiser in the mixture with TNT was ammonium nitrate; this salt is VERY hygroscopic and is not suitable for use in the humid climate of Mesopotamia, where the British Army was also fighting.

It was replaced in 1918 by the relatively non-hygroscopic salt barium nitrate, in the 20:80 mixture and became the standard filler for ALL Mills Grenades. As such, it would not have been a special order but of course would have been entirely suitable for use in the Belgian Congo etc.

 

JMB,

A brief explanation of the Belgian Mills grenades. It has nothing whatsoever to do with post-war export orders from the UK, requests for custom fillings, or use in Belgian colonies. It is simply post war clearance of obsolescent and obsolete British munitions stocks in France and disposal at little more than scrap value by the British government.

As for the (original) grenade box markings, the grenade supplier is AFM, Atelier de Fabrication de Munitions - a French Schneider factory that serviced Belgian government requirements, in this case with leftover Mills grenades from the British wartime stores.

 

Immediately after the war, the British government sold off huge quantities of munitions in France to various European countries. Belgium was one beneficiary of the grenade surplus, and had in any event used the Mills grenade from 1916 through November 1918, supplied directly by the UK during that time. It made sense to rebuild its Army with a grenade already in inventory and with training established. As most of the surplus (millions of) grenades were in dumps in France, the logistics of post war supply to Belgium were for the French AFM factory to sort, clean, rectify, probably repaint in Belgian service markings, and re-box the grenades. Supply continued into the early 1920s, as the mountains of surplus were reduced.

 

The Mills grenades requested by Belgium from AFM were of the No.23 MkIII type (though some were refitted with No.36 base plugs), as that had been the pattern supplied by the UK for the last six months of the war, and it was one of the munitions regarded as no longer required by the UK. Many were filled 80:20 amatol and that is how they were passed on by AFM to the Belgians.

 

As for tropical fillings, 20:80 baratol was ultimately adopted in the 1920s in the UK as the standard grenade filling, but relatively few Mills grenades were filled baratol by the end of WWI. There was a late 1917 spot demand for a million tropical No.23M grenades, to which was added a spot demand for 400,000 No.36M, these demands being modified to use 100% Grade I TNT.

 

 

 

265

 

Edited 24 June by 14276265
Details of M spot demands added

[JMB1943]

265,

Thanks for telling the tale of the post-war disposal of the Mills bombs.

Your reference to use of the No.23 by Belgium during the war raises a Belgian Army issue that I will raise in a new post.

Regards,

JMB

[sphinx]

Hello,

I am researching a DCM winner for an action on Gallipoli on 7.8.1915 which was awarded for his actions as a bomber.  I am familiar with the almost identical actions of Lt. W.T. Forshaw VC on the same day and in the same location, an officer who threw improvised jam tin bombes for 2 days at the Turks.

My question is this, had any No. 5 Mk. 1 grenades reached Gallipoli by that date, and if not would there have been a supply of the earlier Number grenades, 1 & 2 for instance  or were there just improvised jam tin bombs available.

I look forward to any information on the subject

best wishes

[14276265]

12 hours ago, sphinx said:

My question is this, had any No. 5 Mk. 1 grenades reached Gallipoli by that date, and if not would there have been a supply of the earlier Number grenades, 1 & 2 for instance  or were there just improvised jam tin bombs available.

The first Mills (No.5) grenades are recorded as arriving at Gallipoli at the end of August 1915, so a few weeks after your action of interest.

Hand grenades available in late July and August other than improvised jam tin grenades included: ball grenades made "locally" (in Malta and Egypt); ball grenades (No.15) made in the UK; light and heavy pitcher (No.13 and No.14) grenades; limited numbers of Lotbiniere "hairbrush" grenades (Australian extemporised version of the British No.12 box grenade); and a relatively small number of the long cane handled No.2 percussion grenade.

The No.3 Hale percussion grenade was available as a rifle grenade.

 

 

265

[sphinx]

6 hours ago, 14276265 said:

The first Mills (No.5) grenades are recorded as arriving at Gallipoli at the end of August 1915, so a few weeks after your action of interest.

Hand grenades available in late July and August other than improvised jam tin grenades included: ball grenades made "locally" (in Malta and Egypt); ball grenades (No.15) made in the UK; light and heavy pitcher (No.13 and No.14) grenades; limited numbers of Lotbiniere "hairbrush" grenades (Australian extemporised version of the British No.12 box grenade); and a relatively small number of the long cane handled No.2 percussion grenade.

The No.3 Hale percussion grenade was available as a rifle grenade.

 

 

265

265,

 

Thank you for you informative reply which is very interesting.

I will do further research on the other types you mention.

thanks again