Location of dressing stations, field hospitals

[chrisaustin]

Can anyone assist in pointing me in the right direction to ascertain which dressing stations or field hospitals were used for casualties from the Battle of Loos? Also are there war diaries available for these medical facilities which may assist in tracing casualties?

[James]

If the soldier you are intrested in died from his wounds in France they were most often buried in a cemetery next to the Hospital/CCS etc

You can find out where the various medical units were from the LLT site (link at top of Page)

Once you establish likely units you can find the ref no for their war diarys from the national archives.

War diarys tend to give location and outline activities rather than '25th Jan treated 1234 Pte blogs xx regt for gunshot wound left foot'

Because of the wide spread nature of the battle as well as the confusion generated it is impossible to state which CCS a man would go to if they survived unless you have their service records.

I suspect you are unlikely to find refrence to an individual but I stand to be corrected.

[mick1234]

Have a look at the following link which may be of help, Chrisaustin.

mick

http://www.vlib.us/medical/CCS/ccs.htm

[patrick anderson]

Hi Chrisaustin ,,,

I dont know if this booklet will help you further :

Locations of HOSPITALS AND CASUALTY CLEARING STATIONS , British Expeditionary Force 1914-1919 : compiled by MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (date 1923 )

Loos is not one of the towns or places mentioned in the publication (reprint )

pat w anderson

[kenf48]

The answer, as ever, is on the LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/bat13.htm

in the paragraph 'More aspects ot the plan' sub para beginning "The medical facilities on the First Army front at Loos included..." I suspect however you're asking the wrong question, as there is no guarantee he was treated/remained at any of the CCS listed.

See also http://www.1914-1918.net/wounded.htm for details of the casualty evacuation chain

Ken

[James]

C

If you want specific help with an individual or a unit post the details and I am sure there are plenty of members able to help.

[chrisaustin]

C

If you want specific help with an individual or a unit post the details and I am sure there are plenty of members able to help.

Thank you so much James (and everyone else who has posted) ... there are a few more details I need to check out, including from the replies already so kindly given ... but it is indeed an individual who survived the war and I will post more specific detail tomorrow once I have checked everything out further. Once again many thanks.

Chris

[chrisaustin]

Have a look at the following link which may be of help, Chrisaustin.

mick

http://www.vlib.us/medical/CCS/ccs.htm

Thanks Mick ... this list may well help when I have further information on specific locations , although I hadn't realised quite how many there were!!

[chrisaustin]

Hi Chrisaustin ,,,

I dont know if this booklet will help you further :

Locations of HOSPITALS AND CASUALTY CLEARING STATIONS , British Expeditionary Force 1914-1919 : compiled by MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (date 1923 )

Loos is not one of the towns or places mentioned in the publication (reprint )

pat w anderson

Thanks Pat, I think this is similar to the link provided by Mick and will certainly help to establish which of these served the area in which my relative was wounded.

[chrisaustin]

The answer, as ever, is on the LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/bat13.htm

in the paragraph 'More aspects ot the plan' sub para beginning "The medical facilities on the First Army front at Loos included..." I suspect however you're asking the wrong question, as there is no guarantee he was treated/remained at any of the CCS listed.

See also http://www.1914-1918.net/wounded.htm for details of the casualty evacuation chain

Ken

Thanks Ken, I will read through the mass of information given relating to the Battle of Loos, although as you say I suspect it might be impossible to establish which CCS or hospital he passed through on his way back to England and I may have to settle for background information (but even this helps a great deal in piecing together my grandfather's experiences at this time).

[Peterhastie]

Was the CCS connected to a division as the Field Ambulance was. I have a casualty died

14 Oct 1918 in the 13th FA, attached to the 5th Division ?LLT. The WD is available for the 13th FA, but not to download:(

I would love to know where it was on this date. This might give me a clue as to where the casualties unit was.

[kenf48]

This might give me a clue as to where the casualties unit was.

There are easier ways to discover where a unit was than making assumptions as to where casualties were from who were evacuated to a FA

Ken

[Peterhastie]

Alexander Clark 74680

220th Siege Battery RGA.

Buried Bethune Communal Cemetery.

Died 13th Field Ambulance.14 Oct 1918

The WD 95/392 (220th SB) only covers to 1917

I was hoping the location of the FA would assist in the a, location of his death and b,

the general location of his unit

[spof]

Peter

Here are the movements of 220SB.They ended up in 56th Heavy Artillery Group which in July 1918 were Army Troops for Third Army and the war diary is in WO 95/388. It is not yet digitised and wasn't on the list of ones being done at the moment.

Glen

[Peterhastie]

Thanks for that SPOF.

Are these your notes or some other document. It doesn't look like a WD

.

What do you mean by "Army Troops" were they still an artillery unit, doing artillery things.

4 x 6" Howitzers, nice piece of info, thanks.

I would still like to know where the 13th FA was.

I hope to go to NA week after next and will look at there WD

[spof]

Peter

They come from a large box of documents in NA in item WO 95/5494 covering the allocations of ASC, MG units, RA etc.

Army Troops means they are under the direct command of (in this case) Third Army rather than being controlled by Corps, Brigade or Division.

Glen

[chrisaustin]

Hi everyone, once again thanks for all your tips. Here are more specific details required which may assist me in locating:

a) location of CCS's in Battle of Loos with particular reference to 13th NF

maps to assist in locating which would be nearest to Hill 70 action and finally

c) to point me in the right direction for the RAMC War Diaries relating to those CCS.

I would also be interested to know whether those wounded bound for Blighty would be entrained there or via a Field Hospital? I note that Vermelles was close to the railway. Also is it true as suggested by Peter that it is possible to identify which FA unit was attached to a particular division?

Details: My grandfather, Ernest Wilson 7295 13th NF, recorded as wounded Oct 1915 and sent back to England

From War Diary to 30.9.1915, were deployed at Hill 70, north side of Lens/Bethune road where the first few casualties were sustained. 13NF then were put under orders of 46th Brig, 7th Highland Light Inf and fought at Map ref: 1/20000 36c NW 'B' series where further casualties sustained.

During march to the Front, war diary indicates passing constant stream of wounded towards Noeux Les Mines and Noyelle Les Vermelles.

From LLT, 21st Div reserves were located at Bois Hugo, Chalk Pit Wood, Chalet Wood and Hill70 Redoubt, and between Loos Road Redoubt and Le Rutoire.

I don't have exact date my grandfather was wounded, but it appears that although confused and split up, 13th NF were in roughly same area?

I think a map of the area might help me to establish from the list provided by Mick which CCS was nearest.

Thank you once again to you all. Here's hoping for more background!

Chris

[Sue Light]

I think you would do well to look at a copy of the History of the Great War, Medical Services, Volume 2, (Sir W. G. Macpherson) which gives all the medical arrangements for the Battle of Loos in great detail and with good sketch-maps. It's a busy, complex and constantly changing picture, and I think that it's a mistake to imagine that men from any particular unit would end up where they 'should' have gone - fine in theory, but often very different in practice. Men would be taken from a Field Ambulance back to a Casualty Clearing Station by motor ambulance, and from the CCS onto an ambulance train, or possibly a barge, back to a Base Hospital. While men had a different passage through the casualty chain - some might have gone to more than one Field Ambulance or CCS, they all would have gone to at least one General or Stationary Hospital before going to the UK. At the end of the day, without a service record, it's only ever going to be guesswork.

Sue

[kenf48]

In spite of my reservations and acknowledging the wisdom of Sue's post above.

Ten men from 13th NF were killed during October 1915. Seven on the 3rd October, six have no known grave, one died of wounds and is interred at Fouqieres Churchyard Extension where 'many of the burials came from Field Ambulances based in the village.' (CWGC)

The other deaths in the Battalion in October occurred on the 16/17 and the 27th. All three men are interred in the two cemeteries at Houplines and may have been 'brought in 'after the war.

None of this means you're g-f was wounded on 3rd October, nor does it identify the CCS but on the balance of probability it may help to narrow down your search.

As for your other query the LLT identifies 63rd/64th/65th FA attached to 21st Division.

Ken

[kenf48]

I would still like to know where the 13th FA was.

I hope to got to NA week after next and will look at there WD

And good luck in your search; however he was interred at Bethencourt Communal Cemetery (not Bethune as at post 13), and I'd suggest that was the village where the FA was based. The village is only 15km from Cambrai and it may be the battery was deployed on the attacks on the Hindenburg line.

He was the only casualty that month so as a signaller/telegraphist he may fell victim to a sniper and sustained the gsw to the chest while preparing/repairing wires, but that is speculation.

Ken

[chrisaustin]

I think you would do well to look at a copy of the History of the Great War, Medical Services, Volume 2, (Sir W. G. Macpherson) which gives all the medical arrangements for the Battle of Loos in great detail and with good sketch-maps. It's a busy, complex and constantly changing picture, and I think that it's a mistake to imagine that men from any particular unit would end up where they 'should' have gone - fine in theory, but often very different in practice. Men would be taken from a Field Ambulance back to a Casualty Clearing Station by motor ambulance, and from the CCS onto an ambulance train, or possibly a barge, back to a Base Hospital. While men had a different passage through the casualty chain - some might have gone to more than one Field Ambulance or CCS, they all would have gone to at least one General or Stationary Hospital before going to the UK. At the end of the day, without a service record, it's only ever going to be guesswork.

Sue

I think you would do well to look at a copy of the History of the Great War, Medical Services, Volume 2, (Sir W. G. Macpherson) which gives all the medical arrangements for the Battle of Loos in great detail and with good sketch-maps. It's a busy, complex and constantly changing picture, and I think that it's a mistake to imagine that men from any particular unit would end up where they 'should' have gone - fine in theory, but often very different in practice. Men would be taken from a Field Ambulance back to a Casualty Clearing Station by motor ambulance, and from the CCS onto an ambulance train, or possibly a barge, back to a Base Hospital. While men had a different passage through the casualty chain - some might have gone to more than one Field Ambulance or CCS, they all would have gone to at least one General or Stationary Hospital before going to the UK. At the end of the day, without a service record, it's only ever going to be guesswork.

Sue

Thanks Sue ... have made a note of this book and will try to get a copy from the library. I'm sure it will give me lots of detail to flesh out my grandfather's story. I know a lot can only be guesswork, it's a bit like putting together all the pieces of the jigsaw and it's such a shame his service record has not survived. There may well be some medical records surviving as he was admitted to a mental institution ten years after the war (the eventual effect of his wounds), but unfortunately I cannot access them as they are embargo'd. Thanks for taking the time to respond

[chrisaustin]

In spite of my reservations and acknowledging the wisdom of Sue's post above.

Ten men from 13th NF were killed during October 1915. Seven on the 3rd October, six have no known grave, one died of wounds and is interred at Fouqieres Churchyard Extension where 'many of the burials came from Field Ambulances based in the village.' (CWGC)

The other deaths in the Battalion in October occurred on the 16/17 and the 27th. All three men are interred in the two cemeteries at Houplines and may have been 'brought in 'after the war.

None of this means you're g-f was wounded on 3rd October, nor does it identify the CCS but on the balance of probability it may help to narrow down your search.

As for your other query the LLT identifies 63rd/64th/65th FA attached to 21st Division.

Ken

[chrisaustin]

.

Thanks Ken. I know that there are no guarantees in relation to firmly identifying these locations, but it all helps me to flesh out the background to my grandfather's experiences. I think it will certainly be worth looking for the FA war diaries for the places you have mentioned.

By the way I assume I am correct in assuming that if regimental records show him as wounded in October 1915, this would be the date he actually sustained the wounds, rather than say, the date of notification? This would obviously affect where he might have been at the time, as there was action from 25th Sept to 3rd October and some later in October.

Regards, Chris

[kenf48]

Unfortunately without a service record, or occasionally a nominal list in the war diary then you have to go with what you have as far as records are concerned.

As you say CWGC lists 111 casualties for 13th Bn on the 26/27th with a handful on the 25th and one on the 28th (who died of wounds and was interred at Nouex-les-Mines which, in 1915, was used by the Field Ambulances stationed there [CWGC]). There are no other dates in September on the CWGC database.

I haven't looked at them all but most have no known grave and are commemorated on the Loos Memorial.

The 'fog of war' often clouds the accuracy of the date of death as casualty lists were often not compiled until the Battalion came out of the line but I'd suggest if the Regimental record says October then it was October and not September.

Ken

[James]

C

If you go to the LLT link at the top of the page you will be able to find a section on how to read a trench map and a link to McMasters University which has free on line acess to some trench maps.

The 46th Bde was a part of 15th Scottish Div and they have an outline in the Div history of how the evacuation chain was organised during the battle of Loos as well as a schematic diagram for the Ypres battle with time frames etc.

Are you sure about the war diary refrence to 46 Bde and 7HLI? The 7HLI was in Gallipoli at the time although the 12th HLI was part of that brigade at the time and took part in the battle.

Will post more when I get the chance

James

This map although from 1916 shows the general layout and the locations you are after:

http://lt1.mcmaster.ca/ww1/wrz4mp.php?grid=36c&map_id=131&view