Location of dressing stations, field hospitals

[James]

C

For information and giving a scale of the casualties, a summary from 15 Div History:

45, 46 and 47 Field Ambulance were part of the Division, Prior to the battle Advance dressing stations, collecting stations and main dressing stations were established and during the course of the battle (about 2 days) 4763 casualties past through this chain which only had a staff of 423. Most of the casualties were from 15 div but many from other units. On the 27th evacuation was by No 8 Motor Ambulance and by the 29th all casualties had been evacuated to Casualty Clearing Stations.

[chrisaustin]

C

If you go to the LLT link at the top of the page you will be able to find a section on how to read a trench map and a link to McMasters University which has free on line acess to some trench maps.

The 46th Bde was a part of 15th Scottish Div and they have an outline in the Div history of how the evacuation chain was organised during the battle of Loos as well as a schematic diagram for the Ypres battle with time frames etc.

Are you sure about the war diary refrence to 46 Bde and 7HLI? The 7HLI was in Gallipoli at the time although the 12th HLI was part of that brigade at the time and took part in the battle.

Will post more when I get the chance

James

This map although from 1916 shows the general layout and the locations you are after:

http://lt1.mcmaster....map_id=131

Thanks again James. My information on 46 Brigade was taken from an excerpt from war diary for 13 NF provided by Graeme Clarke on 22.1.13 in thread for 13(S) Battalion NF. I have saved these images onto my laptop but unfortunately can't work out how to copy it to you.

Regards Chris

[Peterhastie]

Got to look at WO 95/388 and no mention of 220th Siege Battery.

3rd Army stuff, yes, 56th Siege Battery, but not 56th HAG.

13th FA at Barastre till 10th Oct then Caudry for rest of Oct 18, except B&C section who went on to Bethencourt on the 22nd

WD states one death on 14th so it looks like Caudry near Bethencourt, thanks ken48, just seen your post.

Apologies for hijacking the topic

[James]

Chris,

Further to post on other thread

Summary from 15 Div history:

(At this time the enemy held the redoubt and the crest of Hill 70, with what was left of 46Bde and some other intermingled units holding a line just below the crest)

Around 6pm on the 25th GOC 15Div ordered one Bn from 62Bde to move up and be placed under 46th Bde at hill 70. The rest of the Bde to be in reserve. Around 9pm he then received orders to attack hill 70 with 62Bde and the rest of 15Div at 9am on the 26th, this in spite of continued requests for reinforcements and the fact that 46Bde for example had suffered nearly 75% casualties.

‘About 11pm the 13^th Northumberland Fusiliers (62^nd Brigade) were sent up to relieve the 46^th. It Lost its way, but, fortunately, was met by Colonel Purvis (12^th HLI) in Loos and knowing the orders, he guided it into its allotted position.’

Despite continued effort the attack the next day failed.

[chrisaustin]

Chris,

Further to post on other thread

Summary from 15 Div history:

(At this time the enemy held the redoubt and the crest of Hill 70, with what was left of 46Bde and some other intermingled units holding a line just below the crest)

Around 6pm on the 25th GOC 15Div ordered one Bn from 62Bde to move up and be placed under 46th Bde at hill 70. The rest of the Bde to be in reserve. Around 9pm he then received orders to attack hill 70 with 62Bde and the rest of 15Div at 9am on the 26th, this in spite of continued requests for reinforcements and the fact that 46Bde for example had suffered nearly 75% casualties.

‘About 11pm the 13^th Northumberland Fusiliers (62^nd Brigade) were sent up to relieve the 46^th. It Lost its way, but, fortunately, was met by Colonel Purvis (12^th HLI) in Loos and knowing the orders, he guided it into its allotted position.’

Despite continued effort the attack the next day failed.

Chris,

Further to post on other thread

Summary from 15 Div history:

(At this time the enemy held the redoubt and the crest of Hill 70, with what was left of 46Bde and some other intermingled units holding a line just below the crest)

Around 6pm on the 25th GOC 15Div ordered one Bn from 62Bde to move up and be placed under 46th Bde at hill 70. The rest of the Bde to be in reserve. Around 9pm he then received orders to attack hill 70 with 62Bde and the rest of 15Div at 9am on the 26th, this in spite of continued requests for reinforcements and the fact that 46Bde for example had suffered nearly 75% casualties.

‘About 11pm the 13^th Northumberland Fusiliers (62^nd Brigade) were sent up to relieve the 46^th. It Lost its way, but, fortunately, was met by Colonel Purvis (12^th HLI) in Loos and knowing the orders, he guided it into its allotted position.’

Despite continued effort the attack the next day failed.

Thanks again James, that information mostly ties in with what I have seen in the 13NF war diaries ... do we know what it's original allotted position was? My background reading from 13NF war diaries and some of the books suggested on this forum, suggests that B Company was sent to support 7HLI on Hill 70 ( don't know where their position was) while 3 other companies were held east of Loos-Hulluch road. Two more companies were subsequently sent to Hill 70 for the next morning's attack, but did not receive orders before prelim bombardment started and had to fall back to the road, and after a further attack back to the previously captured German trenches, and eventually ordered to withdraw to "Quality Street" (haven't a clue where this was!) Really interesting stuff though ... talk about "in at the deep end"!

[toofatfortakeoff]

If I recall, a lot of Lincolns were sent to Lichfield AFTER transfer to England.. Heres a link to one of the photos I was given recently. I also found a list recently bundled into a soldiers records of a base hospital in France giving details of men with severe wounds.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8ubMe9m-tYU/UM4d8gi1nVI/AAAAAAAABCg/wZl4Mwx82zU/s1600/W1+Hospital.jpg

Jim Knight wounded at Hohen redoubt 5th Lincolns far left middle row, Fred Gadie behind him both from Barton on Humber.

[BJanman]

Two more companies were subsequently sent to Hill 70 for the next morning's attack, but did not receive orders before prelim bombardment started and had to fall back to the road, and after a further attack back to the previously captured German trenches, and eventually ordered to withdraw to "Quality Street" (haven't a clue where this was!)

No 46 Field Ambulance had an Advanced Dressing Station at Quality Street. No 45 FA had theirs at Mazingarbe and No 47 FA at Fosse 7.

The ADS at Quality Street was in 48 houses and cellars, giving accommodation for 350 lying cases and 150 sitting cases. Special communication trenches were set aside for carriage of wounded only, from RAPs to the ADS at Fosse 7 and Quality Street, and a tramway line ran from Quality Street and Fosse 7 to the breweries at Philosphe and Mazingarbe.

The A.D.M.S. of the 15th Division’s report may be of interest - it states:-

“On the afternoon of 25th September I sent on a bearer sub-division of No 46 Field Ambulance under Lt J R Turner, RAMC to Loos to endeavor to bring in wounded from there. He went forward collecting them, but his party was subjected to shell-fire and was also gassed by asphyxiating shells.”

“On Sunday, 26th September I ordered ‘C’ Section, No 45 Field Ambulance, to proceed to Loos and there opened a dressing station. The section opened one in a house on the main Bethume-Lens road 1,000 yards south-west of Loos and collected wounded until Monday at noon 27th September, when they were shelled out of it. The officer in charge, Caption H R Friedlander, carriage to Quality Street. He remained behind and endeavoured under heavy shell-fire to put his horses in the vehicles and bring them away.....”

“Some of the above casualties were amongst men of other divisions, but none the less the work entailed by the field ambulances was the same. The number of these was 889.”

“The total of casualties of the 15th Division reported as admitted into other division field ambulances was 423.”

“The total of the 15th Division casualties accounted for was the large number of 4,297 of all ranks”

Barbara

[James]

Further to above post by Barbara I have a low quality map of the general area of Loos, on it you can pick out some of the salient points such as in square 27 the ADS by Fosse 7.

PM me your email and I will send it to you (To be of any use its too large to post here) It comes from 15 Div history and showes the start positions and boundaries etc.

This map should cover the same area.

http://lt1.mcmaster....map_id=131

edited after I realised I had already posted some info here before

Edited 11 February , 2013 by James

[chrisaustin]

No 46 Field Ambulance had an Advanced Dressing Station at Quality Street. No 45 FA had theirs at Mazingarbe and No 47 FA at Fosse 7.

The ADS at Quality Street was in 48 houses and cellars, giving accommodation for 350 lying cases and 150 sitting cases. Special communication trenches were set aside for carriage of wounded only, from RAPs to the ADS at Fosse 7 and Quality Street, and a tramway line ran from Quality Street and Fosse 7 to the breweries at Philosphe and Mazingarbe.

The A.D.M.S. of the 15th Division’s report may be of interest - it states:-

“On the afternoon of 25th September I sent on a bearer sub-division of No 46 Field Ambulance under Lt J R Turner, RAMC to Loos to endeavor to bring in wounded from there. He went forward collecting them, but his party was subjected to shell-fire and was also gassed by asphyxiating shells.”

“On Sunday, 26th September I ordered ‘C’ Section, No 45 Field Ambulance, to proceed to Loos and there opened a dressing station. The section opened one in a house on the main Bethume-Lens road 1,000 yards south-west of Loos and collected wounded until Monday at noon 27th September, when they were shelled out of it. The officer in charge, Caption H R Friedlander, carriage to Quality Street. He remained behind and endeavoured under heavy shell-fire to put his horses in the vehicles and bring them away.....”

“Some of the above casualties were amongst men of other divisions, but none the less the work entailed by the field ambulances was the same. The number of these was 889.”

“The total of casualties of the 15th Division reported as admitted into other division field ambulances was 423.”

“The total of the 15th Division casualties accounted for was the large number of 4,297 of all ranks”

Barbara

Brilliant information, thanks Barbara. Just one further question ... where was "Quality Street"?

[chrisaustin]

Further to above post by Barbara I have a low quality map of the general area of Loos, on it you can pick out some of the salient points such as in square 27 the ADS by Fosse 7.

PM me your email and I will send it to you (To be of any use its too large to post here) It comes from 15 Div history and showes the start positions and boundaries etc.

This map should cover the same area.

http://lt1.mcmaster....map_id=131

edited after I realised I had already posted some info here before

Thanks James ... is it possible to e-mail me this map so I can save it? Will PM you my e-mail address.

Chris

[BJanman]

Just one further question ... where was "Quality Street"?

It will be easier for me to show you than try to explain, I think. If you PM me your email address I will send you what I have.

Barbara

[chrisaustin]

It will be easier for me to show you than try to explain, I think. If you PM me your email address I will send you what I have.

Barbara

Hi Barbara ... just tried to PM you with my email address but it won't send ... coming up with message that BJay cannot accept new messages? Any ideas?

Chris

[BJanman]

Hi Chris

Sorry my inbox was full. I have just made some space so you should get a message through ok now.

Barbara

[Mikedrinkall123]

I have a similar request. I have been trying to find out what happened to my wife's grandfather in WW 1. According to his family he received shrapnel injury during the battle of the Somme in July 1916 and was repatriated back to the UK. I can't find either his Medical or Service records to confirm that. I have seen War Diaries of his regiment which was based in Ribemont in July 1916. Some of his Regiment were killed and wounded during the battle of Mametz Woods. It is possible he was injured at that time. The information I have on him at the moment is as follows:

 

Name: Richard James Carr

Birth date: 22.02.1886

Place of birth: Northern Ireland

Regiment: South Irish Horse, 

Rank: Private, No. 1566

Date of joining: October 1915

May 1916 - South Irish Horse joined with the 1/1st Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry to form XV Corps Cavalry - was used as support for the 38th Welsh Division who were attacking Mametz Woods. The SIH were used to transport munitions to the trenches. The War Diaries report two soldiers killed and three injured by shrapnel on the 12th July 1916.

 

Can anyone help to confirm one of those injured was my wife's grandfather   Or where I might try to find out?

 

He did recovery from his injuries and returned to the Western Front and fought with the Royal Irish Regiment in the infantry, army number 25107. He survived the war and was listed to receive the Victory Medal and British War Medal. He was classified as class z on the 15th April 1919.

 

Many thanks

 

Mike

 

 

 

[TEW]

I can only see a WO Casualty List for him as 25107 R J Carr RIR. Daily list dated 19/1/1918. Wounded probably mid December 1917 with RIR. There is nothing more to indicate his battalion or anything regard the specifics of his wound.

 

The medal roll says SIH then 7th & 5th RIR.

 

The WO Casualty List aren't perfect, there's always a slight chance he's been mis-transcribed or his wound wasn't severe enough to end up on that list. If he was repatriated back to the UK then you'd think that would be severe.

 

Try the diaries for 7th & 5th RIR around Nov-December 1917. If you have ancestry, 7th Bn.   5th Bn. diary not transcribed or on ancestry. There were in Salonika Sept 15 to April 18 then to France.

 

Seems more likely he was wounded late 1917 with 7th RIR then maybe posted to 5th when they returned to France.

 

TEW

[Mikedrinkall123]

This is very helpful and would suggest he was injured much later than the family had thought unless he was injured twice. Would greatly appreciate it if you could let me know where I could obtain the WO Casualty List where he is mentioned.

[TEW]

Always the possibility he was wounded twice and the OCR software is not picking it up.

 

I can't check The Times at present, the list may have been reproduced in there on the same date. Not sure if it was officers only by then.

 

Local papers reproduced the Casualty Lists as well.

 

I see from the list there is another Carr with number 25109, maybe coincidence as one is from Downpatrick and the other Kilmoganny.

 

TEW

[RAN]

Firstly i hope it is OK to post in this thread, if I need to start a new thread please let me know.

 

I would be grateful if anyone could help me determine what medical facilities/station/s my grandfather may have passed through following being injured in 1917. His details are as follows........

 

Harold Sykes Andrews 

No record found.

1182 RFA (T) Driver, then 705299 Driver Lance Bombardier. 

210 Battery

Positioned near Nieuwpoort, Belgium.

Date of injury: October 9th 1917.

 

The above date is confirmed by an entry in the diary for 210 Bty, and subsequently reproduced in Jack Horsfall's "The Long March". His condition was described as "seriously injured", apart from any other unknown injuries my grandfather lost his right arm, so I would imagine he would have moved through a number of medical facilities ?. He survived, and was discharged on February 28th 1919. It mentions Charlton on his discharge papers, not sure if that was a medical or admin function. 

 

Any guidance on finding information on his medical locations, would be most welcomed.

 

Thank you.

 

RAN

[TEW]

Ah... 210 Brigade, B Battery I think. Wounded along with Gnr. J Demaine? B Battery position shelled by 5.9s from 9-10am.

 

Lucky to have that sort of detail. Seems odd if he lost an arm in Oct 17 but wasn't discharged until Feb 1919.

 

Anyway, you're in luck again as there is a 42nd Div Medical Arrangements order dated 9th Oct 1917 which gives the chain of evacuation. The difficult but is that there are 8 Regimental Aid Posts for the artillery, then all sick and wounded evacuated to ADS in Nieuport and from there to the CMDS at Oost Hoek.

 

But, Artillery Aid Posts which were near the Car Stands could evacuate direct to the CMDS and bypass the ADS.

 

To get any more detail a precise location of B Battery would be needed to see how that fits into the closest RAPs assigned to the artillery. Map refs are given for the 8 artillery aid posts.

 

Not sure where he'd go after the CMDS.

 

I'll add a link to 42 Div ADMS later.

 

TEW

 

[RAN]

TEW,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Yes to have that detail is quite staggering to me. Indeed B Battery 210. Yes Gnr. J Demaine also severely injured, Gunner J Adams killed.  I have some information on the possible location of the battery on the 9th. I will dig it out and post. You also have raised some concerned over the discharge date, so I will revisit that as well.

 

Please excuse my ignorance of military acronyms..........ADS ? CMDS ? RAPS ?  ADMS ? and Car Stands ?

 

Thanks again.

 

RAN

 

 

[TEW]

1 hour ago, RAN said:

.ADS ? CMDS ? RAPS ?  ADMS ? and Car Stands ?

 RAN,

Sorry, it is a world of abbreviations.

In some sort of order;

RAPS - Regimental Aid Post. Abbreviation also used for artillery aid post. First place of medical treatment.

Car Stands - Places where cars/vehicles could evacuated men from RAPs

ADS - Advanced Dressing Station

CMDS - Corps Main Dressing Station

 

ADMS - Assistant Director Medial Services. The man in charge of the divisional medical team.

 

If you have ancestry. 42 Division ADMS.   210 Bde, location page?

 

The 210 Bde. diary says that B Batt went into position at R.36.a.3.1 on the 2nd Oct. Nothing says they moved before the 9th but I can't be 100% sure they didn't.

 

R.36.a.3.1 AND some of the Artillery Aid posts mentioned before are located on this map. Not actually marked though. Extreme right hand side half way up, R36. Down and slightly to the left is square X5 which had 2 of the Artillery Aid posts mentioned.

 

Looks as though there was a Car Stand (X.6.a.30.65) not far from his position (R.36.a.3.1) and close to one of the Artillery Aid posts (X.5.b.8.0) which probably means he bypassed the ADS and went straight to CMDS in Oost Hoek north of Gent.

 

Having trouble finding a map with squares M & S (the other Artillery Aid posts) I think they maybe just to east of above locations on another map which I can't find.

 

TEW

 

 

[RAN]

TEW,

 

Thanks for this great information. Yes I agree about the abbreviations. 

 

Regarding the Oct 2nd location of R.36.a.3.1, sorry I should have been more specific in my reply, I had great assistance via this site last year to find this location on a map showing the. I also have previously read the war diary entries. 

 

I will revisit the maps and see if I can gain some in site into the locations you have mentioned.

 

Thanks again,

 

RAN

 

 

 

 

 

[TEW]

Ran,

 

Something has been niggling me and I think the link I posted to a map may not be the right map. The grid refs I gave came from the various diaries so those are correct but if you place those positions on the map I linked to, I think now that you'll be far too east. The R.36.a.3.1 ref must be west of Nieuport. As must the X and M refs for the aid posts.

 

Don't think McMaster or NLS have maps of that area (sheet 11), linesman may do one. You could try a new post for a map request unless you have one?

TEW

 

 

[RAN]

TEW,

 

There was a problem finding a map with the  R.36.a.3.1 ref on it. The problem was eventually solved, please leave this with me, I will go back and review the thread which helped me find the location, there is a map. The ref is to the west of Nieuwpoort, if you look on Goggle maps, in the angle of Polderstraat & Karthuizerstraat there is a rectangular body of water. Close by the water are two buildings, the ref is centered below the larger of the two buildings. 

 

As mentioned I will checkout the map info on the other thread.

 

Thanks for your continued help.

 

RAN

[RAN]

deleted