WW1 uniform?

[anne.b.le]

Could the experts on this forum tell me whether this man is wearing a WW1 uniform or is it earlier?

Many thanks

Anne

[FROGSMILE]

Could the experts on this forum tell me whether this man is wearing a WW1 uniform or is it earlier?

Many thanks

Anne

It is a pre-WW1 scarlet kersey undress frock, for an infantry regiment Anne. This was the second quality uniform (note the absence of white piping down the front edge) and gradually phased out after 1902, except for in India, where they had a special pattern made of serge.

The collar facings look a dark colour but I am unsure if they are dark blue. The collar badges appear to be sphinxes and quite a few regiments used that device as their insignia. Do you have any idea where the man was from?

The two most likely regiments are either, the South Wales Borderers, or the Dorset Regiment, both of which wore the sphinx collar badge (with minor variations) and had re-adopted grass green facings (collar etc), the former in 1905 and the latter in 1904.

[anne.b.le]

Frogsmile- that is brilliant thank you so much, I enjoyed seeing the attached photos too.

My husband's family are from S. Wales- the photo frame says 'A&G Taylor" Photographers to her Late Majesty. By Special Royal Warrant. Cardiff, Pontypridd, Bridgend & Merthyr so he is probably with the S Wales Borders. At the moment I don't know who he is but presumably someone from the family if they have kept the photo after all this time.

Another member of the family was in the S Wales Borders 1st Territorial in WW1 and went to Aden and then Mhow- we have a photo of him in India -(I think!).

When you say "note the lack of white piping down the front edge" why is that important? The reason I ask is I have another photo- from "Queen Studio's", Cardiff and Pontypridd and it would be interesting to know if this is later or earlier than the one above. Also I'm not sure if this could be the same man?

I will load up the next photo and would greatly appreciate your opinion on it.

Many thanks again

Anne

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile- that is brilliant thank you so much, I enjoyed seeing the attached photos too.

My husband's family are from S. Wales- the photo frame says 'A&G Taylor" Photographers to her Late Majesty. By Special Royal Warrant. Cardiff, Pontypridd, Bridgend & Merthyr so he is probably with the S Wales Borders. At the moment I don't know who he is but presumably someone from the family if they have kept the photo after all this time.

Another member of the family was in the S Wales Borders 1st Territorial in WW1 and went to Aden and then Mhow- we have a photo of him in India -(I think!).

When you say "note the lack of white piping down the front edge" why is that important? The reason I ask is I have another photo- from "Queen Studio's", Cardiff and Pontypridd and it would be interesting to know if this is later or earlier than the one above. Also I'm not sure if this could be the same man?

I will load up the next photo and would greatly appreciate your opinion on it.

Many thanks again

Anne

Always glad to help Anne.

From your information I would say that he is definitely from the SWB (before 1881 the old 24th Regiment of Foot of Zulu Wars fame). The green collar that he is wearing only came back into use in 1905, having been changed to white (much to the regiment's dislike), like the image below, between 1881 and then.

The reason that the lack of white piping is important is that it makes clear even in a head and shoulders shot that it is an undress frock (i.e. loose fitting jacket) that he is wearing. The more closely tailored (fitted) full dress "tunic" had white piping down the front and was made from a finer, and thus more expensive, cloth.

[anne.b.le]

Fascinating Frogsmile! I am learning so much here- thank you.

Can I ask a simple question- if he was a soldier in 1905 or later with SWB would he have served abroad or would he have been based in the UK?

Don't worry if this is outside your remit- I see from your member information you are expert in British army uniforms and insignia so I don't expect you to know everything about the whole British army!

best wishes

Anne

[FROGSMILE]

Fascinating Frogsmile! I am learning so much here- thank you.

Can I ask a simple question- if he was a soldier in 1905 or later with SWB would he have served abroad or would he have been based in the UK?

Don't worry if this is outside your remit- I see from your member information you are expert in British army uniforms and insignia so I don't expect you to know everything about the whole British army!

best wishes

Anne

The website that would tell me the exact stations of the two regular battalions (1st and 2nd) is down at the moment, but in the interim I can tell you that the 1st Battalion were in India from 1897 until 1910 and the 2nd Battalion were in Britain between 1902 and 1910, so the above photo is probably of a 2nd Battalion soldier. Once the website is up again I will be able to tell you the battalion movements.

[FROGSMILE]

I have now been able to access the information showing SWB movements and these are the facts:

1st Battalion SWB.

1897 India: Chakratta

1903.01 Dalhousie

1905.03 Karachi

1909.03 Quetta

1910.12 England: Chatham

2nd Battalion SWB.

1900.02 South Africa

1904.06 England: Aldershot

1904.12 England: Tidworth

1906.10 Aldershot

1908.09 Chatham

1910.01 South Africa

[Muerrisch]

To the best of my knowledge and belief only Royal regiments [with dark blue collar] had the white braid to the collar. The position of this braid changed from time to time, but the 1902 tunic and frock put it at the bottom. Look at the Dorsets men in post 2, for example.

There may be a regimental peculiarity at work here: I am NOT saying he has to be "Royal", just that he probably is.

[FROGSMILE]

To the best of my knowledge and belief only Royal regiments [with dark blue collar] had the white braid to the collar. The position of this braid changed from time to time, but the 1902 tunic and frock put it at the bottom. Look at the Dorsets men in post 2, for example.

There may be a regimental peculiarity at work here: I am NOT saying he has to be "Royal", just that he probably is.

Yes I did consider that point carefully before making my post, but came down on the side I did for several reasons. Firstly at the time concerned no Royal regiment had the sphinx as its collar badge (until 1946 when the Lincolns were so honoured). Second, the strict regulation of the braid that you refer to applied only to the full dress tunic, as seen in Post 2, and there was remarkable latitude with the undress frock, with several variations of home service pattern over the years, let alone the foreign service (or Indian) pattern. I enclose an example of an Norfolks undress frock, where even with white facings, there is still an edging of white braid around the base of the collar. I also enclose a Devons band tunic and you will see that despite it not being a Royal regiment, a line of white lace appears under the collar. Never say never!

The generic infantry undress frock prior to 1881 had a line of white braid under the collar, including for the 24th/SWB, and my assessment with that in mind is that it seems likely than when the SWB readopted grass green facings in 1905, a line of white lace was placed under the collar to emphasise/outline the green, just as it had been before, when the regiment had last worn that colour. I cannot think of any alternative given these factors. I had not wanted to explain all this to the OP, as such minutiae that is of interest to you and I, is rarely so for the layman (or woman), who just wants to know a simple answer to their question.

[Muerrisch]

Thank you for the extra illustrations, very handy.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you for the extra illustrations, very handy.

It is because of situations like this, and also the Austrian knot worn by bandsmen/drummers for a short time, that there is such a dire need for a source book on undress uniforms and other 'variations' to the norm. You can also see the piping under the collar of the frock in the enclosed photo of a Devon's LCpl before they returned to their Lincoln Green facings.

Regiments with sphinx collar badges were:

1. Lincolnshire Regiment.

2. South Wales Borderers.

3. Dorset Regiment.

4. Manchester Regiment.

5. Gordon Highlanders (officers SD only, ORs a Tiger).

6. Gloucestershire Regiment.

[anne.b.le]

Great Frogsmile- that is all very helpful, especially the location and dates for the SWB's.

Thank you so much for sharing your very expert knowledge with us all.

Now all I have to do is find out who these men are!

very best wishes

Anne

[FROGSMILE]

Great Frogsmile- that is all very helpful, especially the location and dates for the SWB's.

Thank you so much for sharing your very expert knowledge with us all.

Now all I have to do is find out who these men are!

very best wishes

Anne

I am grateful to see the photos Anne, the period between 1902 and 1914 is quite poorly recorded in terms of published information on 'undress' (working) uniforms (as opposed to 'full dress' - parade uniforms), as this was a watershed period when the British Army was changing over from scarlet (in general terms) to khaki, following the bitterly learnt lessons of the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.

[Grovetown]

Regiments with sphinx collar badges were:

1. South Wales Borderers.

2. Dorset Regiment.

3. Manchester Regiment.

4. Gordon Highlanders (officers only, ORs a Tiger).

And Lincolns.

Cheers,

GT.

[Muerrisch]

I am grateful to see the photos Anne, the period between 1902 and 1914 is quite poorly recorded in terms of published information on 'undress' (working) uniforms (as opposed to 'full dress' - parade uniforms), as this was a watershed period when the British Army was changing over from scarlet (in general terms) to khaki, following the bitterly learnt lessons of the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.

Not really surprising as the scarlet frock was obsolescent from 1902 when the SD jacket was introduced ....... we can see how VF and Militia scarlet frocks were funded, but where the money came from to replace regular infantry frocks is a matter of conjecture. This in an era when the "blue patrol/ cycling frock" was also becoming virtually de rigeur in India, and also seen at Home on quite junior soldiers. Perhaps the pbi had further deductions from their money? I cannot see replacement frocks being supplied from central funding.

[FROGSMILE]

Not really surprising as the scarlet frock was obsolescent from 1902 when the SD jacket was introduced ....... we can see how VF and Militia scarlet frocks were funded, but where the money came from to replace regular infantry frocks is a matter of conjecture. This in an era when the "blue patrol/ cycling frock" was also becoming virtually de rigeur in India, and also seen at Home on quite junior soldiers. Perhaps the pbi had furhter deductions from their money? I cannot see replacement frocks being supplied from central funding.

Yes I agree, there is still much to learn about that period. It seems that scarlet frocks (presumably of India pattern, but perhaps also utilising obsolescent Home stocks - that is the way the Army works), continued to be used in India for a time.

I am wondering if he was perhaps a drummer. They (and the bandsmen) would have been the last to lose their scarlets and I think it unlikely that they would necessarily have had the special drummers lace on a working, undress frock at that time, perhaps making do with just the drum badge. However, that is just conjecture.

[Muerrisch]

Yes, the drum badge was indeed prescribed for the frock: officially not provisioned for the tunic BUT one sees a lot of these badges on the tunic [and the bugle, in LI]. This was the bulky version in yellow blue black and white wool ..... rather an ugly little badge.

[gordon92]

It is because of situations like this, and also the Austrian knot worn by bandsmen/drummers for a short time, that there is such a dire need for a source book on undress uniforms and other 'variations' to the norm. You can also see the piping under the collar of the frock in the enclosed photo of a Devon's LCpl before they returned to their Lincoln Green facings.

Regiments with sphinx collar badges were:

1. South Wales Borderers.

2. Dorset Regiment.

3. Manchester Regiment.

4. Gordon Highlanders (officers only, ORs a Tiger).

As a side point, officers of the Gordon Highlanders wore a sphinx badge only on the service dress jacket. Otherwise, Gordon officers used the Tiger on the full dress doublet and on the serge frock worn overseas until it was phased out after 1903.

[FROGSMILE]

As a side point, officers of the Gordon Highlanders wore a sphinx badge only on the service dress jacket. Otherwise, Gordon officers used the Tiger on the full dress doublet and on the serge frock worn overseas until it was phased out after 1903.

Yes indeed. You will understand I hope that I did not wish to get too far down in the weeds when replying in relation to the OPs query about a Welsh line infantry frock.

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, the drum badge was indeed prescribed for the frock: officially not provisioned for the tunic BUT one sees a lot of these badges on the tunic [and the bugle, in LI]. This was the bulky version in yellow blue black and white wool ..... rather an ugly little badge.

Yes, this one.

And Lincolns.

Cheers,

GT.

Yes GT, I had mentioned them but then forgot to add them to the list. I have now, and also the Gloucesters.

[gordon92]

Yes indeed. You will understand I hope that I did not wish to get too far down in the weeds when replying in relation to the OPs query about a Welsh line infantry frock.

Great images of the Gordon officer's full dress uniform. Do you own these items?

[FROGSMILE]

Great images of the Gordon officer's full dress uniform. Do you own these items?

No, I just have photos.

[Guest]

On 05/03/2013 at 06:37, FROGSMILE said:

It is because of situations like this, and also the Austrian knot worn by bandsmen/drummers for a short time, that there is such a dire need for a source book on undress uniforms and other 'variations' to the norm.

 Because I have an interest in such things I wondered if anyone is currently work on such a source book? Particularly for the 19th century uniforms?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Fever said:

 Because I have an interest in such things I wondered if anyone is currently work on such a source book? Particularly for the 19th century uniforms?

 

I believe that the proprietor of uniformology.com , Mr Bruce Basset-Powell , is doing so.  See: http://www.uniformology.com/00-MAIN-MENU.html

[Guest]

Many thanks for your prompt response. I will make contact with him. I have quite a bit of archival material which could likely throw light on the subject.