Sleepwalkers - Christopher Clark

[jscott]

I'm still working my way through this thread, but with less than 100pages to go in the book I would agree that "Sleepwalkers" is an absolutely superb examination of the lead up to the outbreak of war and is a must read for anyone interested in ww1. 10/10.

[David Ridgus]

The editorial in this month's History Today noted that sales of Sleepwalkers in Germany had now passed the 200,000 mark. The editorial suggested that it was probably no coincidence that it was the first major study since before Fritz Fischer not to blame Germany for the outbreak of the war.

David

[phil andrade]

Yes, there's nothing more seductive than being told what you want to hear, especially if it gets you off the hook.

He is actually a very persuasive speaker, and he combines humility and humour in his message.

I'll stick with Max Hastings, because I like being told what I want to hear, too !

Phil (PJA)

[Old Tom]

At the moment I am about half way through 'The War that ended Peace' which contains an account of events and trends in society in the years from 1898 to 1914. I am beginning to think that the war was, to some extent, inevitable, and choosing from the myriad of factors leading to it is approaching a case of 'pick and mix'. I like Phil's comment (post 54) about Max Hastings. Decisions were taken by a small number of officials and rulers. The Tsar was probably the nearest to being an absolute monarch with the Austro-Hungarian dual monarch and the Kaiser not far behind. Foreign secretaries seem to have had a very free rein and often did not keep their fellows informed. Military leaders had a great deal of influence and produced plans which seem to have overlooked the political dimension.Advances in military technology were overlooked. The empires prepared for war which only needed a spark to start.

May I suggest that the underlying cause is the ambitions of empires, both the established and the would be. Germany had become powerful in the industrial and military fields since its formation, was encircled by the 'entente' powers and had formed the 'triple alliance' The failing Ottoman empire lead to conflict between the Austro-Hungarians and the Serbs; that provide the spark.

Old Tom

Old Tom

[phil andrade]

Who can forget, let alone discount, Margaret Macmillan's parting sentence : " There are always choices. " ?

Phil (PJA)

[neverforget]

Who can forget, let alone discount, Margaret Macmillan's parting sentence : " There are always choices. " ?

Phil (PJA)

I would like to endorse, and to reiterate this remark: Indeed there are always choices !!

In the light of so much interest, and hype over this book, I decided to read it through at least twice before offering these comments.

Before I read it, I basically held the opinion that the blame rested primarily with Austria/Hungary and Germany.

After having just finished my second read of this epic book, I feel much better informed about the various contributing factors of all nations during the July crisis, and the general build up to disaster. I also understand more fully the complex and volatile relationships between the Balkan states and their foes and allies.

However, I still see nothing within these many pages to veer me much away from my previously held opinion.

I see that the "war blame" cannot rest solely with Germany, and believe fundimentally that Austria knew full well the potential consequences of an invasion of Serbia, and decided to go ahead nevertheless. Of course they were bullied by Germany, but it was still down to themselves to perpetuate the events or not.

Germany/Austria-Hun were bent on war. Once this became clear, the only sensible choice open to everyone else was to prepare for it.

I can`t bring myself to attach any blame to Russia for standing by Serbia, any more than I can blame Britain for standing by Belgium.

I still think that Austria were totally irresponsible to invade Serbia.

I still think that Germany were wrong to invade Belgium.

I think that the Russian/French alliance was a defensive pact.

I think that the German/Aus-Hun pact was an aggressive pact.

This book is an exceptionally well researched and comprehensive study, and a fantastic reference source for the subject. However, although I can see where the author is coming from, his conclusion visa vie "Sleepwalking" is a non starter for me. The more I study the subject, the more it leads me to believe that all parties were wide awake to the events, if not powerless to stop them. In my opinion, there had been so much jostling and squaring up by the time Austria finally kicked it all off, that everyone could see where this was heading. So, no "Sleepwalking" for me, I`m afraid.

My simplified conclusions only of course. I`m sure that many will disagree, but that is the integral beauty of this forum.

Best regards to all.

[davidfegga]

I'd echo the comments of Neverforget above. Just read this book a second time too, while reading "The War that Ended Peace" alongside it. Sleepwalkers is a very good book, but not convinced by it's argument of where the blame lies.

Many years ago my Granddad gave me a brief summary along the lines of "Austria started the first one, and an Austrian started the second one"! Probably have to agree with him there.

Dave

[David Ridgus]

I'd echo the comments of Neverforget above. Just read this book a second time too, while reading "The War that Ended Peace" alongside it. Sleepwalkers is a very good book, but not convinced by it's argument of where the blame lies.

Many years ago my Granddad gave me a brief summary along the lines of "Austria started the first one, and an Austrian started the second one"! Probably have to agree with him there.

Dave

Blimey Dave. All the books I've read. All the years I've studied and mulled over this issue. And all the time I just had to ask your Granddad

David

[Doctord84]

Am about half way through reading this book. Superbly written and extremely well referenced, it has clearly been a labour of many years to produce. Will have to get to the end of it before making my mind up about the central thesis, but it has certainly made me think about the subject from some different perspectives.

[Guest IcecreamLtDan]

It was while doing some research on this book I came across this website and decided to join. I too, am about half way through this book and am thoroughly enjoying it. "The War that ended Peace" is next on my reading list. Any other good books on the subject you folks can recommend? Good to see someplace where discussions on these works are taking place and I hope to join in on these discussions.