Date of death in question

[N.S.Regt.]

For a couple of months I have been exploring the possibility that the dates of death may be in error for Five 25th battalion men who died on Oct. 8 1915. I have compiled some research on this and sent it out and shown this to others for their oppinion. From the replys I got from them I went to the National Archives I sent them two emails. The First went to the section that deals with battalion records I had included all my research I still await their reply. The second I had asked for a date of death for the men in question and gave no information other than name serial nr. and that they were killed in Oct 1915. I had received their response yesterday.

The official date of death for these men is Oct. 12 1915 since the war diary had reported no casualties that day I thought it was odd. I still have not at the same time account for five men Killed in the Oct. 8th mine explosion and came to the conclusion that these were the men. I have found proof in the form of period casualty list that seemed to suport my claim. This is the information I got back from the National Archives with the dates of death from their service records.

67451 Pte Beaton John s. 12 Oct. 1915.

68299 Pte Gardiner John 8-9 Oct. 1915 reported date of death was Oct. 12 1915 however a notation is made on file to indicate that the actual date if death is Oct 8-9 1915.

67189 Pte. Linsdell Charles F. 12 Oct. 1915.

67374 Pte. Smith John L. 12 Oct 1915.

67268 Pte. Taylor Alexander 8 Oct. 1915 date of death was originally 12 Oct 1915 but was crossed out and 8 oct. 1915 was entered in it's place.

I have contacted Veterans Affairs and gave them my research at the same time I sent it to the National Archives. The contact there seemed inpressed with my findings and we exchanged several Emails. I forwarded the Email I received from the National Archives and they plan to review and inform me of the changes that will be made on the Canadian Virturial War Memorial. I think that this proves that at least to of the men in question had died on Oct. 8 1915 and raises doubt on the others I am hopeful that this may change a 89 year old error in the Official dates of death for these men.

Best Regards

N.S.Regt.

[Neil Burns]

Hi N.S.,

Great job! It appears these men were missing from the 8th of October and only officially 'declared' dead on the 12th, if I read your post correctly.

That's great setting the record straight after all this time, you should be proud.

Take care,

Neil

[N.S.Regt.]

It appears these men were missing from the 8th of October and only officially 'declared' dead on the 12th

Neil

I think that was it exactly when going over the brigade diaries I found that there was a lot of confusin as to the 25th that day. Lt-Col. LeCain was replaced a few days later over it. It seems the brgade H.Q. was looking for information and had to send out people to clarify matters. I have been using the 25th Diaries to confirm dates of death which listed 12 killed or missing on Oct. 8 1915. Out of the 12 men only 6 bodies were found I believe Pte. Gardiner was one of the men found on Oct 9 1915 thus the two dates in his date of death. He has a known grave and the only other that has a known grave is Pte Linsdell who I think is the other found on Oct. 9 who is reported Killed on the 12th.

This whole thing was very confusing at first but as I gathered my research the peices seemed to go into place if you would like I can send you what I sent to the Archives to see what I mean I still have your Email so it is not a problem anyone else interested I will do the same. All I wanted to do when I started was to explore the possibility that there was a error in the official dates and correct this on the Roll or Honor I am compling for the Battalion.

Best regards

N.S.Regt.

[Guest Juice]

N.S. Regt,

You obviously know a lot about the Nova Scotia Rifles (25th Batt. CEF) It is interesting to note that Stephen Bird (brother of Will Bird, who wrote "Ghosts have warm hands") was "officially declared" K.I.A. October 8th, 1915, the day the mine blew up under their trench.

If you read the book from Will Bird, let me ask you this question: Did the 12 men all came back as ghosts (like Stephen Bird) to save the lives of other soldiers?

Juice

[N.S.Regt.]

Juice

Most excellent I knew the name but never made the connection. He is one of the men I have that was killed that day. I have never read that book but must give it a look. I do have a account of the explosion that written by Lieut. Ralph Lewis (by the way I am looking for his MM 14/15 Star and Victory I have his BWM) which gives a eye witness perspective to the story. I did a scan of the pages below. The names of all Killed that day are as I believe.

67451 Pte. Beaton John S.

68128 Cpl. Bennett Harold Wilfred.

67193 Pte. Bird Stephen Carman.

67343 Pte. Eaton Steward B.

68299 Pte. Gardiner John.

68340 Pte. Gardiner Joseph.

68189 Pte Linsdell Charles Frederick.

67277 Pte. McDonald Daniel D.

67374 Pte. McKim William Ellis.

68115 Cpl. Munro George Crawford.

67374 Pte. Smith John L.

67268 Pte. Taylor Alexander.

Best regards

N.S.Regt.

[Guest Juice]

N.S.,

My reference to ghosts concerning the fellows who were KIA on the 8th is based on the story that is found in "Ghosts have warm hands". Will Bird, who wrote the book and went on to write for McLean's Magazine (did I spell that right?) was saved twice from bombing, by his brother who pulled him out at the very last minute, each time! Of course, his brother Stephen had been dead for quite a while...

Thank God, science cannot explain everything just yet!

Will Bird was originally with the 193rd, but served with the 42nd Black Watch CEF. A must read!

Juice

[N.S.Regt.]

Juice

I did do a search of the book it must be long out of print I could not find a copy for sale. I will check some of the local libaries and see if they have a copy it sounds interesting. I have read other books by Bird but never seen that one. I have ever only been able to find three mentions of the mine explosion in books plus newspaper stories. But the account by Lewis is the best I have come accross because some of the small details that he provided were found in other sources. It would be interesting to look at any material about the meeting that LeCain had with the Birgade H.Q. and the reasons for his replacement. Lt. Lewis did not seem to impressed by him. I know that Edward Hilliam, his replacement, was much respected by the men and is often referred to as the man who made the 25th. there is a bigger story here which I would like get the big picture if I can ever find the records. Just for intrest below is a scan of Will R. Bird while a memeber of the 193rd.

Thanks and best regards

N.S.Regt.

[chris.wight]

Stephen, you can get a copy from CEF Books; I got my copy in April this year. The original title was "And we go on". The second title is much more evocative and revealing.

It is a great read especially how Bird's brother "plays" a part in saving his life in a basement. His parting comment to Will was "...if there is anything I can do for you, just let me know, and if I don't come back maybe I'll find a way to come and whisper in your ear". I think he did.

[N.S.Regt.]

Chris

Thanks for the information, I have a order pending from CEF Books I will check to see if it had been sent if not maybe I can get this added. I am soon going to have to buy another book case. It does sound like a interesting story.

Best regards

N.S.Regt

[chris.wight]

That sounds familiar. It starts with one book then another, hmm just one more......

I know the feeling.