Stretcher-Bearer or Red-Cross Armbands

[4thGordons]

Could someone enlighten me regarding which was worn when and by whom? Did only RAMC personnel wear red cross armbands? Were stretcher-bearers considered medical personnel or was it simply a role to which individuals were assigned. I assume there is a legal (Geneva Convention?) implication of wearing the red-cross armband (that they are unarmed?) which may not pertain to the SB armband. Any clarification would be much appreciated. Chris

[Andrew Upton]

http://www.vlib.us/medical/geneva.htm

"CHAPTER III.--PERSONNEL.

Article 9.

The personnel engaged exclusively in the collection, transport, and treatment of the wounded and the sick, as well as in the administration of medical units and establishments, and the Chaplains attached to armies, shall be respected and protected under all circumstances. If they fall into the hands of the enemy they shall not be treated as prisoners of war.

These provisions apply to the Guard of medical units and establishments under the circumstances indicated in Article 8 (2)."

"Article 20.

The personnel protected in pursuance of Articles 9 (paragraph 1), 10, and 11 shall wear, fixed to the left arm, an armlet (brassard) with a red cross on a white ground, delivered and stamped by the competent military authority, and accompanied by a certificate of identity in the case of persons who are attached to the medical service of armies, but who have not a military uniform."

And:

Found the following information in the 1911/15 RAMC Training manual on page 190, under Article 362:

"As regimental stretcher bearers are not exclusively engaged in the care of the wounded, they are not entitled, as such, to protection under the Convention or to wear the Red Cross Brassard".

[4thGordons]

Thanks very much Andrew. Comprehensively answered.

Just to clarify then, Regimental/Battalion Stretcher bearers might (legally) have carried arms (despite the probable impracticality)?

Chris

[Grovetown]

It is a myth that medics be unarmed. There is provision for even RAMC to carry weapons, not from a combatant perspective, but so that they can at least protect/ defend their charges.

[4thGordons]

It is a myth that medics be unarmed. There is provision for even RAMC to carry weapons, not from a combatant perspective, but so that they can at least protect/ defend their charges.

Ahhh.

So wearing a red cross brassard/arm band and carrying a rifle are not mutually exclusive? Wouldn't that contradict Art. 9 ("engaged exclusively in the collection, transport, and treatment of the wounded and the sick...") that Andrew posted above?

Where might I find the provision to which you refer?

Chris

[Scalyback]

Ahhh.

So wearing a red cross brassard/arm band and carrying a rifle are not mutually exclusive? Wouldn't that contradict Art. 9 ("engaged exclusively in the collection, transport, and treatment of the wounded and the sick...") that Andrew posted above?

Where might I find the provision to which you refer?

Chris

Not rifle! Use of sidearm IE pistol for personal protection.

[Guest]

This is a quote from a letter written by a stretcher-bearer of the 2nd Black Watch, to his Father, 25/8/1915

" The only arms the stretcher bearer carries is a bayonet to be used only in self defence. "

Mike

[4thGordons]

Not rifle! Use of sidearm IE pistol for personal protection.

OK, so a red cross armband and a sidearm (revolver etc) is OK? Practically speaking I see your point but I would not imagine regulations or treaties would distinguish between types of firearms?

Chris

Edit: Narrowly interpreted, even self defense might be seen as a challenge to the "exclusively in the collection, transport, and treatment of the wounded and the sick" might it not?

Edited 25 April , 2013 by 4thGordons

[4thGordons]

This is a quote from a letter written by a stretcher-bearer of the 2nd Black Watch, to his Father, 25/8/1915

" The only arms the stretcher bearer carries is a bayonet to be used only in self defence. "

Mike

Mike - thanks - this is interesting as we have already established (I believe?) that SBs were not entitled to wear a red cross armband, but apparently were limited in weapons? One would have thought a bayonet would also have been useful for constructing litters etc in the absence of real stretchers.

[Andrew Upton]

Some misinformation going on here now. Stretcher Bearers are basically normal infantryman (or otherwise) temporarily carrying wounded men. They can, in theory, at any point revert back to their more warlike role. Hence they wear the SB arm band and do not come under the protection of the Geneva Convention.

The Geneva Convention itself allows soldiers under it's protection to carry arms to allow them to defend themselves and protect those in their care. In reality this was rarely done, mostly because it was perceived as wrong or likely to reflect badly (or simply create an opportunity for an angry German to take a pot shot). The "small-arms" level of acceptance is a myth, nothing is specified in the Geneva Convention itself or any British literature on the subject I have ever seen. The more detailed posts and references can be seen in posts 11-14 of the following:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=141738

[4thGordons]

Thanks again (and thanks for the link - I recalled the previous discussion but could not find it)

My original query re SB brassards vs Red Cross Brassards has been answered clearly I think. That was my initial interest.

The carrying of weapons or otherwise was a idle wondering on my part. Your short summary above, Andrew, was my previous understanding.

Thanks again

Chris

[Muerrisch]

RAMC recruits were required to undergo a limited instruction in musketry, I would add.

Andrew Upton's understanding is correct [of course!]

[Andrew Upton]

Andrew Upton's understanding is correct [of course!]

Thank you Grumpy, your cheque is in the post .

[Chief_Chum]

"Stretcher Bearers are basically normal infantryman (or otherwise) temporarily carrying wounded men. They can, in theory, at any point revert back to their more warlike role"

In most infantry battalions The Band became Stretcher Bearers while in the front line and returned to their instruments when they came out again.

[Muerrisch]

"Stretcher Bearers are basically normal infantryman (or otherwise) temporarily carrying wounded men. They can, in theory, at any point revert back to their more warlike role"

In most infantry battalions The Band became Stretcher Bearers while in the front line and returned to their instruments when they came out again.

TAFF, sorry to disagree but I do.

Whereas it is cetainly true that:

1. War Estabs 1914 require the band to be broken up, and 16 used as SB, the remainder being distributed in the companies

and

2. Many battalions managed to maintain bands of sorts.in F&F

these were not official bands as such, and the presence of their instruments was certainly not sanctioned in any load tables I have seen.

My belief [but never confirmed by first hand sources], is that by about Christmas 1914 the SBs would be drawn from wherever they could in the battalion [and often more than 16 men in hard going after action], and the bands, if any, became increasingly ad-hoc, with men of aptitude or inclination or previous civilaian experience being awarded band status to play out of the line at gatherings.

Note that War Estabs New Armies 1914 have absolutely no mention of bandsmen .......... SBs, yes, 16.

The above excludes drums, bugles and pipes as appropriate. These were specifically included in 1914, and excluded in 1915 for New Armies but I have no doubt that, one way or another, every self-respecting battalion had at least a semblance of a Corps.

Of course, if I am mistaken I will hoover up new evidence like a sponge [nice mixed metaphor]

Regards

David

[Ron Clifton]

Having checked my copies of War Establishments 1914 (Expeditionary Force) and 1915 (New Armies) I can confirm that what Grumpy says is true as regards his point 1. I have no doubt that his point 2 is also correct although that would rely on individual unit reminiscences which I do not have. I have, however, seen a photo of what purported to be the band of 137 (Staffs) infantry Brigade, which was certainly not covered in the official establishments.

According to the Equipment Regulations 1914, Part 2, Section I, the scale of rifles for an infantry battalion was one per all ranks except bandmaster, drummers, buglers, pipers and range-takers. Note no exclusion of bandsmen, and hence stretcher bearers would be provided with rifles and trained in their use, though I very much doubt that they carried them (even slung) when actually bearing a stretcher.

I would just reinforce Grumpy's point about the New Armies. War Establishments 1915 made NO official provision for bandsmen, drummers, buglers or even pipers. That simply meant that no men could be employed solely on those duties, but the battalions could still designate such men, and clothe and pay them extra out of regimental (not Army) funds. The men who in the 1914 EF establishments were designated as drummers etc were simply included among the privates in the 1915 NA establishments, except that the pipers allowed to Highland regiments and the Scots Guards were no longer allowed as additional numbers.

Ron

[Muerrisch]

Thank you Ron.

I have been looking through such of my accounts of the war as are indexed, to look for "Band".

Several mentions in The War the Infantry Knew, especially Divisional bands, but also some battalions, including 1st RWF, but in a context that suggests strongly that 2nd RWF did NOT have a band. I have the impression that to have a band was fairly uncommon, and to have drums/bugles/pipes [delete where applicable] was almost de rigeur, even though not officially provided to New Armies.

[CarylW]

"Stretcher Bearers are basically normal infantryman (or otherwise) temporarily carrying wounded men. They can, in theory, at any point revert back to their more warlike role"

In most infantry battalions The Band became Stretcher Bearers while in the front line and returned to their instruments when they came out again.

Just out of interest, (I don't know anything about this subject) there was a section of the actor David Tennant's Who Do You Think You Are programme that revealed his great-grandfather William Blair, a member of the Hamilton Marching Band in Derry who apparently (as claimed in the programme and article. Also a newspaper article from 1915 shown in the video below with a list of band members, some with R.A.M.C. after their names ) joined the 10th Inniskilling Fusiliers, became the battalion band and (some of whom?) were seconded as stretcher bearers.

Youtube section of the WDYTYA programme

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=S31UA_ArsbQ&feature=relmfuhttp://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=S31UA_ArsbQ&feature=relmfu

Article here with the statement (true or untrue?) 'band members would automatically have been seconded as stretcher bearers'

http://www.whodoyout...e/david-tennant

[Muerrisch]

Thank you. Here I detect the likelihood that the battalion, and others like it] recreated the pre-war structures and duties, and none the worse for that if they could get away with it. Most/many New Army units hand a tiny handful of pre-war officers and NCOs who would do their best to "Carry On", and all credit to them.

[FROGSMILE]

As a late contributor to this thread I would just like to endorse what has been said regarding the provision of bands and corps of drums. I agree that the Service battalions saw themselves perhaps as closer to the Regular's ethos than the Territorial's and tried hard to emulate the culture and traditions of what they saw as the pre-war professionals.

[hen190782]

As an even later contributor to this topic ... what does the armband in this picture (from the Castleton PC Lantern Slide collection) indicate?

Thanks

Nigel

[Doc2]

Ahhh.

So wearing a red cross brassard/arm band and carrying a rifle are not mutually exclusive? Wouldn't that contradict Art. 9 ("engaged exclusively in the collection, transport, and treatment of the wounded and the sick...") that Andrew posted above?

Where might I find the provision to which you refer?

Chris

Actually, the Geneva convention specifically authorizes medical personnel (with red cross protection) to be armed "for the protection of themselves and their patients". No distinction is made in the conventions between sidearms and longarms, but longarms have proven to be hard to handle when working around patients, so most medics who are armed wear sidearms. Enlisted medical personnel (in the US Army at least) are authorised and have available long arms. when I commanded a US Army General Dispensary unit, I had a full arms room available, including both long and side arms.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Interesting posts, I was a member of the RAMC for 10 years and trained to use weapons from Browning pistol to SMG to SLR to GPMG to SA80 and a variety of other weapons including AK's and M16's so that I could handle and make safe. We could use any weapon available to defend ourselves and/or our casualties.

[bartensabien]

As a very late contributor to this interesting thread I  have a question.

I'm following a Belgian man from my hometown in Belgium. He immigrated to Canada in 1914 and joined the C.E.F (mounted fusiliers) .in 1915.
He was a bandsman during his training in Camp Sewell  in 1915 : he has a harp-badge on his sleeve.  (see picture).
He is fights in France from February 1916 onwards. On a 1916 picture, he has the red cross badge on his sleeve. (see picture) and in the same year he receives a letter form his brother (in French) that sais :Cher frère sergent brancardier 
Question:
Do (Canadian) strecher beares have the red cross badge on their sleeve ?  Or is he more than a strecher bearer ? Is he a Medic ?  
I thought strecher beares were wearing a SB-arm band.

 

regards

[Muerrisch]

If he has not transferred to the RAMC or the Canadian version, he should not be wearing the red Geneva cross. 

 

When a battalion went to war the band was to be broken up and the bandsmen [who were trained infantry] distributed in the rifle companies. If they managed [many did] to take band instruments to war they could perform as a band behind the lines. Their specific war role was as stretcher bearers [who could legally bear arms such as a rifle or a pistol], wearing a white arm band with SB in red. They were not protected by the Geneva Convention to the extent that members of the RAMC were.

 

Only the RAMC other ranks should have worn the cross as badge, but all ranks had the Geneva Cross armband, endorsed offically on the back. Even RAMC were trained to use rifles, but only officers were armed. Protection of the RAMC was provided by the Army Service Corps men attached to the RAMC.

 

So your man should not wear any red cross but there are quite a lot of examples where the rule was broken.