Sue Light Posted 11 September , 2004 Share Posted 11 September , 2004 At present I'm trying to write a web page for a local man who died on the 24th April 1915 while serving with the 7th Battalion Canadian Infantry. The water is now up to my neck, and I'm sinking fast. I've found the on-line battalion war diary, [and have had some difficulty in reading it - either his writing or my glasses], and have worked out the gist of what was going on, but can anyone tell me how many 7th battalion casualties there were that day? Roughly speaking will do! Thanks - Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 11 September , 2004 Share Posted 11 September , 2004 Just grabbing the closest book I have to hand (Dancocks: Welcome to Flanders Fields) I see that the 7th battalion lost 650 all ranks. This includes the entire battle, but most of them occurred on April 23/24. I usually find that for large battles the War Diaries of the higher formations often give better information. In this case these would be thise of the 2nd Infantry Brigade and the (1st) Canadian Division. In this case the Divisional Diary contains lots of stuff about this period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 11 September , 2004 Share Posted 11 September , 2004 Hi Sue, The 7th, like most of the other battalions, took a pounding, and as jhill states, the number was around 650 for the battle, although somewhere else I recall seeing the number 543. I picked up cheaply a trio to the 7th back in the mid-90's and found that the man, 22074 Pte.E.R.Latham, had died in the battle, killed on the 24th. At least two 7th Bn men, 16420 Sgt.W.H.Dryden and 16246 Sgt.H.N.Pearless, won Distinguished Conduct Medals in the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 11 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 September , 2004 James and Terry Thankyou very much for that [quick work!]. It's the first time I've dallied with Canadians, and I really didn't get much idea from the diary whether the casualties were half a dozen, or half a battalion, and of course the truth is much worse than either. It seems to me, briefly reading through the pages, that this was the 7th's first taste of heavy action - a short time, but a long way from training days on Salisbury plain. Thanks again - Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 11 September , 2004 Share Posted 11 September , 2004 Sue, I took a quick look at the 2nd Brigade diary and it lists the following for the 7th: Officers = 6 killed, 4 wounded, 1 wounded & missing, 6 missing. Total 17 OR's = 72 killed, 146 wounded, 26 wounded & missing, 341 missing. Total 585 I assume that many of the missing eventually ended up being confirmed as killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandyford Posted 11 September , 2004 Share Posted 11 September , 2004 And Sue Following on from Terry's post. This is the casualty totals appendix for the month, 2nd Brigade Diary from the Canadian Archives online. If it will be a clear enough attachment. Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 11 September , 2004 Share Posted 11 September , 2004 Kate, I saw this page for the 2nd Brigade casualties, but after an admittedly quick look, I didn't see similar pages for the 1st and 3rd Brigades. Was Arthur Currie a better record keeper than the other brigade commanders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 11 September , 2004 Share Posted 11 September , 2004 Kate, Â I saw this page for the 2nd Brigade casualties, but after an admittedly quick look, I didn't see similar pages for the 1st and 3rd Brigades. Was Arthur Currie a better record keeper than the other brigade commanders? This may in fact have been the case, but there are many other possible explanations. Gen. Turner of the 1st Brigade was probably quite distracted since his headquarters were under fire much of the time. Gen. Mercer of the 3rd was disadvantaged in the sense that his battalions had been detached and fought under other commands. In any event, I have noticed that there is precious little consistency in War Diaries at any time. We are fortunate in having the Canadian diaries freely available on-line. We have the luxury of checking all related diaries to arrive at a conclusion about what was probably going on. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 12 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 12 September , 2004 Kate Thankyou - I did find it once I'd been pushed in the right direction. I really wasn't expecting to find such good housekeeping! Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 12 September , 2004 Share Posted 12 September , 2004 Here are a couple of maps showing the German attacks on April 24th. This one shows the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 12 September , 2004 Share Posted 12 September , 2004 And the afternoon attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandyford Posted 12 September , 2004 Share Posted 12 September , 2004 Yes. It does seem that Brigadier Currie was a good record keeper. I have read through the 3rd Brigade diary and it doesn't have a casualty sheet like that. Although the Canadian Archive is excellent, I do find it difficult to read with all that switching from large to small scale. However it is still one of the best resources. In the page I posted did you notice there is a very strange sideways '2' in the typing. Chris, those maps are wonderful. My interest is in the 149th Northumberlands who were in action by the Wieltje to St. Julien road on the 26th April. Where we can see 'LINE' going down the front and side of Mousetrap is this the GHQ line? Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 12 September , 2004 Share Posted 12 September , 2004 Kate, yes it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 12 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 12 September , 2004 Thankyou Chris for great maps. Kate - I can imagine the officer bashing out the reports on a huge black Remington suffering from having seen better days! It would have been easy for Miss Marple to track down the writer of the anonymous death threats if they were written on that machine: 'Meet me at 2 o'clock, and bring the £2,222, or you won't live 2 see 2 morrow' Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 12 September , 2004 Share Posted 12 September , 2004 Kate you'll see the Northumberlands on this map, April 25th, 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 12 September , 2004 Share Posted 12 September , 2004 And this one for April 26, 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 12 September , 2004 Share Posted 12 September , 2004 My interest is in the 149th Northumberlands who were in action by the Wieltje to St. Julien road on the 26th April. I hope you are aware that copies of the diaries of the 149th Northumbrian and associated units are available (for this period) on the Canadian War Diaries site. They are lumped in under the heading "50th Division - Miscellaneous" or somesuch. There are also relevant maps and stuff under "sketches and Locations". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 12 September , 2004 Share Posted 12 September , 2004 Kate, glad they are of interest. It takes the deductive skills of Miss Marple to track some of the movements on these maps though I don't know if her eyesight would have been up to the task of tracking all the battalions on the map. These maps all come from Col. A.F. Duguid's Official History of the CEF. The accompanying footnotes volume has a wealth of details with notes, reports, etc. referring. Unfortunately the project was abandoned with only the August 1914 to September 1915 time span being coverered - a real shame. The two volumes were worth buying for the maps alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandyford Posted 12 September , 2004 Share Posted 12 September , 2004 Chris Thank you for the 26/26th April maps. The books by Colonel Duguid certainly sound very worthwhile. The complications of the movements of the troops are apparent on the maps and are also what make those war diaries so difficult but absolutely engrossing to read. jhill - 50th Division - miscellaneous, is my favourite part of the archive site. It was the first thing I managed to access and I couldn't believe my luck. Do you mean that the 'sketches and locations' are in that same section? The A & Q accession is also interesting. Sue - or more worryingly - The 2nd Brigade will advance at 2.00p.m, map sector C 28. Something not right here Holmes. These instructions were typed on Brigadier Currie's typewriter but they were typed by a man with a bent fourth finger on his left hand. Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 12 September , 2004 Share Posted 12 September , 2004 jhill - 50th Division - miscellaneous, is my favourite part of the archive site. It was the first thing I managed to access and I couldn't believe my luck. Do you mean that the 'sketches and locations' are in that same section? The A & Q accession is also interesting. The "sketches and locations" are here . They are a bit jumbled up so you will have to route about. Lots of good stuff though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 13 September , 2004 Share Posted 13 September , 2004 James, as you say, there is lots of good stuff in the "sketches & locations". I'd looked through some of the pages a couple of months ago and I came to the conclusion that some of the pages were Col. Duguid's preparations for the next volume of the CEF history. I'm guessing that some of the writing is his own. The letter that Lt. General Alderson wrote to the 2nd Army H.Q. regarding his view that Major General R.E.W. Turner should not be retained as commander of the 2nd Division, was an eye opener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandyford Posted 13 September , 2004 Share Posted 13 September , 2004 James and Chris An absolute treasure trove. I don't understand some of the markings on the sketches but it will be repaid by further study. Thank you so much. Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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