Promotion to Serjeant

[MatthewT]

All,

In my ignorance of army life how would one be promoted to the rank of a Serjeant during the war, also what on avaerge would their duties \ responsibilities be.

Many Thanks

Matt

[saintone]

Once read that a group of Police Constables presented themselves to several Regiments promising enlistment if they could commence in the rank of Sargeant.

Not the most ideal of experience, however at least they would have some discipline and management skills.

Mike

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Men would be promoted for a number of reasons,they would earn their rank by their service,be promoted from Corporal, as and when a Vacancy arose,Be promoted for Gallant Conduct,Length of service,as they had special skills,etc,

[Captain Dave]

I would add that units tended to grow their own Sergeants. Usually older men, not always the most senior Corporal either would be made up to be a Pl Sgt. This obviously changed as the war went on and younger men went up the ranks quickly based on ability and casualtys. Older men in some cases did not want the responsibility either.

One of the main things to look for would have been an ability to keep the troops in line (in terms of an Infantry Platoon) but with a degree of servility towards some 19 year old 2 Lt.

I would say a steady, proficient Corporal, with an ability to impose discipline, but who also knew when to shut up would have been a contender for the position of Sgt in most units.

The duties differed depernding on what branch of the Army they were in. If you think of it in terms of the Platoon Commander was the linkage with the Company Commander and decision maker of the platoon. The Sgt was responsible for the administration of the pl, ammo, rations, stores etc. He was also responsible for ensuring the Pl cmds wishes were carried out and providing sage advice (as he was usually more experienced than the pl cmd.)

A man who was unable to enforce discipline was no good. A man who was unable, or unwilling to carry out the wishes of his Pl cmd was equaly no use either. You hear often of intelligent men who never made it past Pte, I would assume that as they lacked the ability to impose their will on others they were no use as NCO's.

At the end of the day, a mass mobilisation brings many different types of men toegether, put them into a stressfull situation, and you need someone with the ability to quickly and efficiently kick them in the direction they need to go, an officer is not always able to do that.

[Guest bonza]

Its not an explanation, but 'my man' left Australia in 1914 as a Bugler. He was promoted to Serjeant at Anzac in May, and "reverted to ranks at own request" in June 1915. He was wounded at Lone Pine and returned to Gallipoli as Lance Corporal,Dec 15, made Corporal then Serjeant in France ,March & April resp. 1916. On returning from hospital in 1917, he was made Company Sar-major, but killed in his battle in that role.

With German parents, I often wonder why he "reverted", and whether he was nick-named Kaiser, as per the ANZACS character.

One poignant quote I came across were the last known words of a "Missing, believed Killed" AIF Officer at the beginning of Second Krithia:- "There'll be plenty of promotions after this lot". That's exactly when my man made Serjeant.

[Edward_N_Kelly]

Its not an explanation, but 'my man' left Australia in 1914 as a Bugler. He was promoted to Serjeant at Anzac in May, and "reverted to ranks at own request" in June 1915. He was wounded at Lone Pine and returned to Gallipoli as Lance Corporal,Dec 15, made Corporal then Serjeant in France ,March & April resp. 1916. On returning from hospital in 1917, he was made Company Sar-major, but killed in his battle in that role.

With German parents, I often wonder why he "reverted", and whether he was nick-named Kaiser, as per the ANZACS character.

One poignant quote I came across were the last known words of a "Missing, believed Killed" AIF Officer at the beginning of Second Krithia:- "There'll be plenty of promotions after this lot". That's exactly when my man made Serjeant.

"reverted at own request" could cover a multitude .....

Very common way of avoiding formal disciplining ("take a reduction and I won't charge you").

Could also be because he felt unable to cope with the demands of the rank or was found so by those above (though there were strict requirements when a "administrative" reduction was proposed).

He could also have been proposed as a replacement to another battallion more sorely in need of senior NCOs - and to avoid it he took a reduction in rank.

As an aside - I have my father's record from WW2. He took more reductions in rank than I have ever seen (for infractions of discipline or "sky larking") but was always returned to his rank in very short time. Why ? His trade was a dental mechanic, that was a Staff Sergeant posting, would have been paid it in any case (as trade pay), was required to run the dental section as the senior NCO (and tradesman) and the administrative orders were so written that he had to be one!

Cheers

Edward

PS This by the way after he dragged from the Infantry (due to his trade). He was slated as a reinforcement to 8 Div (in Singapore), to Java and thence to Darwin. From there he was transferred to the AADC (when they discovered his trade).

[Guest bonza]

Edward

Thanks

Am starting to wonder if there would have been a monumental Jack-up if the diggers were told their service records would be made available for scrutiny by all & sundry.

Its a bit strange in these days of privacy provisions that any T D or H can access the innermost secrets of our servicemen. I'd hate it if the missus got hold of even school reports.

Still, the romantic in me allows me to believe that he reverted to be with his mates. His attestation papers carried his admission to a conviction for "Involvement in a Football Fracas" and so he may still qualify as yer tipical larrikin.

Pat

Dam again.

I've just made 2nd looey, wonder if they allow you to revert to sar-major?

[dycer]

Interesting question this not sure I've the answer but please let me ramble!

My Uncle went to France in 1914 as a Corporal in the Machine Gun Section of a Territorial Infantry Battalion.His Number on renumbering was 325002 and he was kiilled as a Serjeant in 1918.

I note a couple of Men with higher numbers e.g. 325007 was an A/RSM and 325009 was a CSM.(As an aside both these Men were awarded the DCM.)

I agree totally that leadership,etc would be the avenue to promotion,not sure about bravery.I am sure there are vey brave men who are not good leaders other than in the heat of Battle.

I suppose the rhetorical question is.Was my Uncle passed over for promotion to QMS/CSM,etc because he was not good enough or because his specialism as a Battalion Machine Gunner prevented him having the skills to do the QSM/CSM duties in the Battalion.

I say this because I ended up as Company Signaller in my TA Battalion and was quickly promoted to L/Cpl(probably because I could drive!) then to Cpl.I would be the first to admit I would have been unable to "manage" a Rifle Section either as a L/Cpl or Cpl.

I think I'm probably back to promtion on merit and skills for the job.

George

[Guest landtran]

My Grandad was a Corporal in King Edwards Light Horse in Belgium. He was wounded whilst saving his captain on 31 July 1917, and later awarded the Belgian Croix de Guerre for "brave deeds done". Although the Captain later died of his wounds, my Grandad was promoted to Acting Serjeant (Sergeant?)

He was one who smart enough to know that not reverting to previous rank usually meant that he would probably be leading any charge from the trenches - a notoriously quick way to achieve immortality.

What I would like to know is that although the award for galantry is well-documented, it does not appear so on the govt medal index - yet his temporary promotion was.

I am also trying to find out why, when he was writing his wife from the Leeds 2nd Northern General Hospital in 1914, he was required to get a pass to visit home, yet it appears the he did not enlist the the King Edward Light Horse until 1916?

Maybe there is some way of tracing his 1914 movements by some other means.

By 1916, He had been to USA as a foreman for Col WF Cody's ranch in Wyoming, walked to Calgary and signed up for the Boer War in the Canadian Mounted Rifles - resigned in South Africa 9 months later, joined the Cape Colony Mounted Police, then left for ?? 15 months later. The Rhodesian Air Force accepted him a Corporal in the Service Police at 60 and invalided him out at 62. (The old war wound 1917 was playing up). Was this the only way to travel for a poor farmer boy?

[SPotter]

Pals,

Study of soldier's papers show that pre-war a prospective candidate for Corporal or Sergeant would have to pass an examination in "Military Subjects for Corporal/Sergeant" before before promoted. Did this requirement formally disappear during the Great War - it would certainly seem that the circumstances dictated that such formalities could not be maintained, but I wonder what the 'old sweats' felt about the 'young upstarts' being promoted alongside them?

Steve