Sherwood Foresters Photo Identification?

[alanlw]

My grandfather served in the Sherwood Foresters from Dec 1915. He was demobbed in March 1919 from the 50 Bn MGC (Machine Gun Corps).

In his eldest son's - my uncle's - possession were two photos which we have always assumed were of his unit at one stage, one possibly with him in (we're not sure which chap he would be if he is in the photo) and the other possibly with his brother in (though we have no proof he was in the same regiment.)

However, a photo recently appeared on eBay with an identical background - and bike - taken in Skibbereen, Ireland by a Chas. Donnelly. Now my family don't think my grandfather ever served in Ireland - only on the western front.

So all in all a bit of a mystery. Can anyone shed any light on in what circumstances these photos were taken?

The first two are our photos, the last the one I found on eBay.

Thanks.

Alan

[Andrew Hesketh]

The second line territorials of the Foresters were heavily involved in the 1916 Easter Rising though not expecting. There are anecdotal reports that some of the men spent some time believing they we're in France.

Sorry about typos and general lack of literacy - I'm usibg my phone and the keyboard is knackered.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Will try to add more laTer when I have my loptop.....

Laptop!

[Andrew Hesketh]

George W Weeks??

Private 242072, definitely second line TF Battalion Sherwood Foresters and almost certainly 2/6th Battalion. Thus highly likely to have been involved in the 1916 Easter Rising though I have no corroborating evidence other than that his number is the result of a 1915 enlistment which matches what you state above. He would have had a four digit number at that time (around about 5800) but these were replaced by 6 digits in the Spring of 1917. As the 2/6th did not move to France until the end of Feb 1917 it is thus only his 6 didgit number recorded on his MIC. I am not certain when he became 140135 MGC - could be at any point, but most likely is when the 2/6th Bn was reduced to cadre in May 1918.

Richard Weeks??

I have no record for such a man in the Foresters (have a Robert, but no Richard). That's not to say he wasn't also in Ireland, but if he was he did not serve overseas after that (Ireland was not overseas so no MIC's etc.)

[alanlw]

Andrew, What you say is fascinating! Thank you.

I have a copy of George's MIC and always wondered why there were two numbers. The latter one, 140135, matches the number on his demob certification (or rather "transfer to the reserve") which the family still has. Incidentally, he was recruited in London - could that have affected which Battalion he ended up in? The story in the family is that he came home on leave at one point and when he returned he found his unit had been wiped out in some battle or other. Perhaps that's when he transferred to the MGC? Any idea what battle that could have been or are there too many candidates? It might be that the photos showed his friends who were killed then and not either himself or his brother.

Thanks for the info on brother Richard, too, even if it is a negative. Haven't been able to find his MIC or anything else on him anywhere (Richard Charles Weeks, incidentally) in army records. In his case the family story was that he was found almost dead in the trenches are needed an enormously long recovery period. Perhaps he was wounded in Ireland instead?

Thanks again.

Alan

[Andrew Hesketh]

No problem Alan.

The 2/6th were involved in several very serious actions in 1917, notably the German Retreat to the Hindenburg Line, the Battle of the Menin Road, the Battle of Polygon Wood, and the Battle of Cambrai. I'm afraid we can do little other than speculate on when / why the transfer to the MGC took place. For that you need to have an expert on that Corps who may be able to narrow things down from his service number. I'd suggest a separate thread on that with MGC clearly in the title as bait! Again, we can only speculate on the two photo's you have, but I suppose (logically) that these were men of his section / platoon i.e. his mates, and he is therefore likely to be in one of them. I suppose that the appearance of another on ebay suggests that a number of the Sherwood territorials were lining up for photo's that day, so its an interesting research point to note that there are probably others out there too. There is a forum member called Mike Briggs who is an out-and-out specialist on the 6th Bn. Again, another new thread with '6th Sherwoods' in the title is likely to attract him, but he has one of those mega high-powered jobs so is an infrequent forum visitor!

Regarding Richard: I have compiled a list of all those wounded in Ireland and he isn't on it. So that shuts another avenue I'm afraid (btw, 173 killed or wounded - shows that the Easter Rising was a very serious affair). The only MIC to a man of his name belongs to the Royal Garrison Artillery. If your man was wounded and had a lengthy recovery he may have been discharged, so I checked the Silver War Badge records and, interestingly, our man from the RGA is listed as Acting Corporal 13598 RGA 1/1 SAR Brigade, enlisted 30/12/1902, discharged 05/02/1919, aged 34. So. here you have a man of the same name that fits the family story. No guarantees of course, but worth pursuit. I'll be honest, I don't know what 'SAR' stands for. When you have a split number like 1/1 it usually implies a territorial unit, but I can't find this on the LLT and a forum search reveals that the question was asked some years ago with few replies other than one speculating 'South African Reserve'. Still, it's all good fun researching.....!

I'm not sure I can help take you any further forward but I'm happy to respond to any further questions. Good luck!

Edited 27 July , 2013 by Andrew Hesketh

[kevinrowlinson]

Quote, "1/1 SAR Brigade"

No.1 Battery, No.1 Siege Artillery Reserve Brigade, Shoreham.

Unless someone beats me to it I will look at the RGA man when I have more time.

Kevin

[Andrew Hesketh]

Cheers Kevin.

This might be a red herring though, the cause of discharge is Para 392 (xvi) which I think, from memory, is 'no longer physically fit for war service'. Not sure if this is due to illness etc. or the result of a wounding that had rendered him as such.

[alanlw]

Hi both, Thanks for the suggestions. Think I have found that guy somewhere before myself, but my Richard Weeks was a travelling salesman in the 1911 census and a warehouseman when he got married in 1913, so not in the army since 1902, alas.

[alanlw]

Andrew, I'll follow up your suggestions of new threads. Never know what might come out of the woodwork. Thanks very much.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Ok. Assumed you would have come across the RGA man.

Good luck.

[Andrew Hesketh]

But....hang on. Enlistment in 1902 would mean (usually) 7 years in the army followed by 5 in reserve....so, enlisted 1902, back to civvy street 1909, be a travelling salesman in 1911 and warehouseman in 1913 and recalled 1914 IF he had enlisted between August and December 1902 in the first place....and guess what? Richard Charles Weeks of the RGA enlisted 30 December 1902!

Your man - was he travelling in 1911 on behalf of the Hovis Bread Company? If so, they are both the same age as well as sharing all the other similarities.......

[BRONNO]

^{Possibly of no significance but just to add that the 51st Battalion Notts and Derby Regt (Sherwood Foresters) were in the area of Skibbereen about 1919/1920 period near the Rushbrooke Dock area, Cork. They had a fatal casualty there to a young Private named William Newman from Nottingham. BRONNO.}

[alanlw]

But....hang on. Enlistment in 1902 would mean (usually) 7 years in the army followed by 5 in reserve....so, enlisted 1902, back to civvy street 1909, be a travelling salesman in 1911 and warehouseman in 1913 and recalled 1914 IF he had enlisted between August and December 1902 in the first place....and guess what? Richard Charles Weeks of the RGA enlisted 30 December 1902!

Your man - was he travelling in 1911 on behalf of the Hovis Bread Company? If so, they are both the same age as well as sharing all the other similarities.......

Yes he was travelling on behalf of the Hovis Bread Co. - that's what it says in the census!!!!. Where on earth did you find the info to confirm it's the same chap??

That's certainly something I've never heard before! Must check again with my father and Richard's grandchildren.

In 1902 he would have been 18 so old enough to join up. 1901 census shows him as a warehouse worker.

Thank you!

Alan

[Andrew Hesketh]

Well, I can't confirm anything. However,

1 same name (and not that common)

2 same age

3 both Londoners

4 only 1 MIC to match the name, the RGA man

5 the RGA man has military service dates that tie up neatly (too neatly really) with his known civilian life

6 your family story is of a severe wound, and the RGA man was discharged as no longer physically up to the job

Must be the same man surely? Far too many pieces of the jigsaw match up. I'm pretty convinced.

However, you need something to irrevocably link the two. Perhaps the local newspaper? Check the Aug-Dec 1914 period for details of men called up as they often carried lists of local men. We have no idea at all about the date of any wounding so it would be a bit of a needle in a haystack search for any news story on that, but it may be necessary.

It's been a fascinating little mystery!

[alanlw]

Cheers Kevin.

This might be a red herring though, the cause of discharge is Para 392 (xvi) which I think, from memory, is 'no longer physically fit for war service'. Not sure if this is due to illness etc. or the result of a wounding that had rendered him as such.

Quite correct, Andrew, well remembered - see http://www.forrestda...troduction.html

[alanlw]

Well, I can't confirm anything. However,

1 same name (and not that common)

2 same age

3 both Londoners

4 only 1 MIC to match the name, the RGA man

5 the RGA man has military service dates that tie up neatly (too neatly really) with his known civilian life

6 your family story is of a severe wound, and the RGA man was discharged as no longer physically up to the job

Must be the same man surely? Far too many pieces of the jigsaw match up. I'm pretty convinced.

However, you need something to irrevocably link the two. Perhaps the local newspaper? Check the Aug-Dec 1914 period for details of men called up as they often carried lists of local men. We have no idea at all about the date of any wounding so it would be a bit of a needle in a haystack search for any news story on that, but it may be necessary.

It's been a fascinating little mystery!

Think I misunderstood that you'd found his civilian job in military records, but I guess you simply looked at the 1911 census and found the coincidences? As you say the rest does fit very neatly (but where does it say he was a Londoner in the military records?), so it it would seem you are right. I did not know about the length of service etc..So thanks very much indeed. I am checking with relatives to see if they know anything they hadn't told me.

A quick look in the on-line British Newspaper Archive reveals nothing so a visit to Colindale would hopefully produce something.

Alan

[Andrew Hesketh]

Yeah, sorry, my poor explanation. I was piecing things together. Sometimes I add 2 and 2 and get 5, but on this occasion I'm pretty sure we have the right man. Too many coincidences.

To be clearer though, there's nothing in the military stuff that says London (my mistake above), but then there's nothing about any location.

I found the Hovis thing in the 1911 census as you say. I was looking simply to see if I could match an age because you hadn't hitherto revealed it, and the chap in the census was the same age as the man discharged via SWB in 1919. That, to me, with all the other evidence, turned me into 'a believer' (as it were). But there's nothing we could prove in a court of law, which is why I suggest a newspaper trawl as cumbersome (and possibly fruitless) as that may be.