steve fuller Posted 16 September , 2004 Share Posted 16 September , 2004 Morning all (if youre in the wet and windy UK) Can anyone tell me anything about this gent please? Im unconvinced that he's who he's supposed to be (according to the family) and would welcome any info on his uniform etc. Seen this pic before somewhwhere Im sure (other than from my family) ... "Oh No, Not another Dragoons Hat?" I hear some Pals saying ...!!! (I do hope not!) Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 16 September , 2004 Share Posted 16 September , 2004 The badge looks royal fusiliers to me. The belt is a leather snake buckle P-14 belt >>>> so 89% possible a territorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 16 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 16 September , 2004 Cheers bkristof - and me mate. Thanks. Anything else Pals? This really does look familiar to me, and Im assuming its from the Forum or a book Ive seen; whatever it is, it looks familiar!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Carter Posted 16 September , 2004 Share Posted 16 September , 2004 Hello Kitchener's New Army battalions also wore the leather snake-belt and equipment. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 16 September , 2004 Share Posted 16 September , 2004 O yes, sorry i forgot 89% territorial and pals bats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 17 September , 2004 Share Posted 17 September , 2004 I would also say Royal Fusiliers. The flames on the grenade are different to that used by other fusiliers regiments. Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 17 September , 2004 Share Posted 17 September , 2004 What about the HAC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 17 September , 2004 Share Posted 17 September , 2004 What about the HAC? I thought the HAC (Infantry) cap badge was virtually identical (in shape) to that of the Grenadier Guards. This appears to be a more "pointed" bomb-burst type (as opposted to the more rounded burst of the Grenadiers/HAC) consistent with that of the Royal Fusiliers. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 20 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 September , 2004 What about the HAC? I thought the HAC (Infantry) cap badge was virtually identical (in shape) to that of the Grenadier Guards. This appears to be a more "pointed" bomb-burst type (as opposted to the more rounded burst of the Grenadiers/HAC) consistent with that of the Royal Fusiliers. Ed Hi Ed Just out of cheeky interest mate, do you have ought on: Pvt John William Fuller 2nd Btn GG KIA 14/9/16. Same father as Charles edward Fuller, berds regmnt KIA 23/8/18. Pvt Leonard Hack 1st Btn GG KIA 1/12/17, F&F He and a William Hack 4032 Beds Yeo were b Shirehampton, e Bristol; brothers or cousins praps? Have sdgw for the above, and both are possible relations .... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 20 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 September , 2004 Whats HAC please guys? (Im being a thicket this morning - too many bubbles & giggles over the weekend methinks). So, as it stands the betting is at: 89% odds on RF's of a TF regiment, 10% on Kitcheners Army and 1% saved to allow for the 'Law of Sod'? Does anyone else recognise it? Spare you the details but I was told it was a young pic of the guy who is shown in my signature, but its not, unless he also managed to squeeze the RF's into his WW1 resume!! Have other ideas, and have seen it before, but wanted to eliminate the possibility of it being a 'standard postcard' picture thats been isunderstood over the years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GavinH Posted 20 September , 2004 Share Posted 20 September , 2004 The Honourable Artillery Company. It was a Territorial Regiment with both Infantry and Artillery components. The badge doesn't look like theirs to me. I think it is a Royal Fusiliers cap badge. The R.F. didn't have any Territorial Battalions, but the first four battalions of the London Regiment (TF) were affiliated to them and wore the same cap badge. I've never seen much correlation between the wearing of 1914 leather equipment and the Territorial Army. I think he's just as likely to be a member of a Service Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers. Not much help I'm afraid Regards Gavin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 20 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 September , 2004 Well, it all helps one way or another Gavin! Thanks Does the lack of an Imperial Service Badge say anything about timing or stage of training when pic was taken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 20 September , 2004 Share Posted 20 September , 2004 Hi Steve, The lack of imperial service badge does not say much at all as the hat that the soldier is wearing is the soft fireld service cap introduced, I believe, mainly in 1917 although originally passed as a pattern in summer 1916. The custom of wearing the imperial service brooch had long since passed by that time. All the best, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 20 September , 2004 Share Posted 20 September , 2004 Hello Steve Apart from SDGW, the only additional information I have is as follows: Pvt John William Fuller 2nd Btn GG KIA 14/9/16. Same father as Charles edward Fuller, berds regmnt KIA 23/8/18. Enlisted September 1903. To France 22 August 1914 (joined 2nd Bn. in field). Entitled to 1914 Trio. Son of Robert Fuller, of Smith End, Barley, Royston, Herts; husband of Agnes E. Fuller, of Hope Folly, Meldreth, Cambs. Age 32. Commemorated Thiepval Memorial. Pvt Leonard Hack 1st Btn GG KIA 1/12/17, F&F Enlisted January 1917. Commemorated Cambrai Memorial. Entitled to British War and Victory medals. Hope the above helps. I would be interested to hear any additional details that you turn up! Kind rgds Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 21 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2004 Tim; thanks mate. So likely to be 1917 onwards youd say? Ed; thanks again, again!! Realistically, wont be looking at them for 1-2 months (unless I get an unexpected break elsewhere), but will pass anything onto you with pleasure. The Hack is going to be my Gt Grans brother. None of the 7 Fuller males in my 'direct' family during ww1 were of service age (incredibly) but their dad was and had a brother called Robert from N. London (so may be Royston), so gotta chase Birth certs etc down yet to clarify . Oh, look at Norfolk Co councils site, has a photo section; type in 'solders' in the search or similar and theres hundreds of pics, including a handful of GG's. Had to break off last night, but can confirm theres > 400! Norfolks mainly of course, but many others too ... Sorry Ed, 2 more sprung out at me last night when trawling thru a Roll of Honour: 1. Jack Paragreen of Heath & Reach (Leighton Buzzard) 2nd GG's definitely enlisted early on, but may have been GG pre War? 2. William Rolls (also H&R), just have GG's I really appreciate your time Ed. Thank you Cheers chaps Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 21 September , 2004 Share Posted 21 September , 2004 Sorry Ed, 2 more sprung out at me last night when trawling thru a Roll of Honour: 1. Jack Paragreen of Heath & Reach (Leighton Buzzard) 2nd GG's definitely enlisted early on, but may have been GG pre War? 2. William Rolls (also H&R), just have GG's Steve I can only find the following on my database: Private 14283 William ROLLS Enlisted March 1909. To France on 6 October 1914 with 1st Battalion. Entitled to 1914 Trio. Pte. Rolls survived the War by all accounts. Interestingly, Pte. 14281 Wilfred John BATES enlisted at Kettering, Northants. and Sgt. 14284 Henry William GORDON enlisted at Bedford. Both of these men were killed. I can't find any reference to Paragreen - I even checked on the NA medal card index but nothing came up. Again, I would be interested in anything that you subsequently turn up on these men! Kind rgds Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 22 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 22 September , 2004 Ed Messrs Gordon & Bates Ill look into, as Ive seen them before. Get back to you on that Ed. They were both Guards were they? Think Bates may have been on a list with Herb Kendall but summats definitely ringing a bell. Kettering too? Hmmmn. Jack Paragreen may be a paper misprint then, as it lists him a just 'grenadier guards', no Btn etc. Had brothers too I recall. Thanks anyway mate. Will send you everything I find Ed Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 22 September , 2004 Share Posted 22 September , 2004 Hi Steve Yes, Pte. Bates was killed with the 2nd Bn. in September 1914 and Sgt. Gordon with the 3rd Bn. in 1917. Bates is shown as enlisting in Northampton but I don't have any place of enlistment for Gordon. Pte. Bates is an interesting case as he is shown as having died whilst serving with the 3rd Bn. on the CWGC database (even though the 3rd didn't arrive in France until the end of July 1915 and he is on the 2nd Bn. 1914 Star medal roll). He is actually buried in the Royallieu French National Cemetery at Compiegne (which was the site of BEF GHQ in August 1914). Curiously, I've noticed three brothers by the name of "Bates" on a RoH published in the LB Observer on 29 September 1914 - all three were serving with the Bedfordshire Yeomanry! I have a good account, published in the LBO, by a Private 14460 Frederick Pratt of the Grenadiers recounting his experiences during the Retreat from Mons. If you ever come across anything further on this soldier, I'd also be interested! He lived on Bassett Road in LB and enlisted in 1908. Have you made your trip to the library at LB yet? I haven't been for a while, but I'm hoping to get in a visit soon. I'll keep my eyes skinned for any Kendalls! Best wishes Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 23 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Ed; the Bates Brothers Im chatting about with Dave (Bedsyeoman) at the moment funnily enough (post is called 'pure plug' i think). Grange Mill were the next houses across the fields from where I was raised - know it well (used to play 'army' there strangely!). Bedsyeoman is in contact with their realtives I believe and I think I went to school with one of the relatives (Robert Bates from memory, but was a couple of decades ago now; for all I know thats who he's talking to!). Know Basset Rd, and the family name Pratt from LB; the one I knew lives in MK now! Will see what pops up on them... Am moving back to MK next week, so Im gonna be looking at Bedford, LB and Luton archives this year, so will check RoH's etc for enlistment areas of anyone you dont pin down if you like. Kendalls & Hacks definitely welcomed mate . Fullers to follow later this year most likely!!! Speak to ya soon Ed Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Hello Steve I've just had a quick glance through the National Roll of the Great War for Bedford and Northampton and found just one "Kendall": Private R. C Kendall, 7th Northants. Regt. Lived at Cloatsham Street, Northampton. There are eight Fuller's: Pte. A.H. Fuller, Northants. Regt. Pte. B Fuller, Bedfordshire Regt. 1AM H. Fuller, RAF Pte H. Fuller, Suffolk Regt. Pte. J. Fuller, RE Pte. R. Fuller, Bedfordshire Regt. Cpl. S. Fuller, Labour Corps Spr. W. Fuller, RE All of the above lived in Bedford. No Hack's listed I'm afraid. Let me know if any of the above are of interest and I'll provide further info. from the volume. Kind rgds Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 27 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2004 Thanks mainly to Gordon in Oregan, who spent who knows how many hours surfing the census records for me (bless you Gordon) I can narrow him down to James Hack, about 27 years old. His Mum to the left - Julia ack, formerly Arnold (born Potsgrove, Beds), and one of 3 possible sisters to his right. My Gt Granmas little brother; what does that make him to me? Gt Grand Uncle???? Will be checking his medals out tonight and working out why an RF uniform .... How can you not love this forum!!! Thanks again Pals Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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