129th Field Ambulance in 1915

[Wintonian]

I have strong evidence (from messages on contemporary postcards) that the 129th Field Ambulance were at Flower Down Camp (on the western outskirts of Winchester) during 1915. I have ascertained from other sources that, along with the 130th and 131st Field Ambulances, the 129th Field Ambulance were part of the 38th (Welsh) Division, assembled at Winchester during 1915, and in France by January 1916. I would be very pleased to hear from anyone who could confirm the precise location of the 129th Field Ambulance during 1915.

In addition, if anyone has access to any information which could confirm that Howard Lloyd Roberts (RAMC service number 48508) served in the 129th Field Ambulance (or even in another RAMC unit) that would be the icing on the cake for me. I have viewed his medal index card, but it seems that his service record has not survived.

If you would like to view a couple of clips of archive film of Queen Mary inspecting troops from the 38th (Welsh) Division (on the 29th November, 1915) at Crawley Down, near Winchester, search the 'British Pathe' web site for 'Queen Mary Winchester'. This was a recent unexpected find and well worth a look.

Wintonian

[sotonmate]

The unit War Diary may show the UK build-up prior to shipping out to France with 38 Division between 21Nov and 6 Dec 1915. The reference in the National Archives Discovery database is WO95/2549/1 which runs from 1.12.1915 to 31.5.1919. It is not yet digital though but can be read at Kew.

Should I modify my knowledge regarding Flowerdown, is it one word or two ?

[Hywyn]

Welcome/Croeso to the Forum

I can't help with the precise location you seek.

Have you seen the photo of this unit here

http://www.1914-1918.net/fieldambulances.htm

There is circumstancial but compelling evidence in these newspaper clips re who might be your man. There seems to be only one of Howard Roberts with overseas service in RAMC, your man. One clipping shows him as a Corporal. Your man has that rank. Another puts him in the Welsh Division The length of overseas service is out, but not if you allow for confusion between length of service total and lenghth of service in France (happens often in nespaper reports)

http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/search/query?query=%22howard+lloyd+roberts%22&titles%5B%5D=Cambrian+News+and+Merionethshire+Standard&date%5Bmin%5D=1914&date%5Bmax%5D=1919

These were obtained on a full name search of that newspaper for the war period. There might be more on permutations of name and the village Borth etc.

Here's the main search page. Select

Hywyn

PS

Thanks for the Pathe heads up.

[DaveKey]

Hywyn,

Thanks for the links to the Welsh Newspaper articles. I've chatted with "Wintonian" in the past about Howard Roberts and the reference to him as "Corpl Howard Lloyd Roberts, R.A.M.C. , Garibaldi, the well known black and white artist," would certainly fit the bill.

Also the link has helped me find some new references for the 38th Division in Winchester, including the Eisteddfod held in Winchester Cathedral for which I have some references in other letters.

With regard to "Flower Down" vs "Flowerdown" ... the OS Map for 1909 shows it as "Flower Down" and the War Office plan for the Camp is "Flower Down Camp" but I have seen both spellings, including a 129th Field Ambulance card by H L Roberts which says "Flowerdown Camp" and today it is generally described as "Flowerdown" ... but then "Cheesehill" in Winchester is now "Chesil". I don't think it was too precise even during the period.

Cheers

Dave

[sotonmate]

Dave

Thanks for the local knowledge. I will accept it either way due to your persuasive argument !

[Wintonian]

Sotonmate,

Apologies for my tardy response to your reply - I really didn't expect such quick responses, if any at all in fact.

However, the TNA reference is very much appreciated, thank you, although my prospects of getting there any time soon are remote at the moment. I have no first hand experience of war diaries, but I had assumed that they probably only started when the unit arrived in theatre, if that's the right expression, so I was just hoping that someone might have had some information from some other more obscure source.

Dave, who is known to me, has "stolen" part of my answer regarding the spelling of Flowerdown, but I can still add to it.

I used 2 words as I believed that was the local contemporary spelling convention, not only on the OS maps, but also in the "Hampshire Chronicle" (local newspaper).

However, I can now add a quote from a book in my collection called, "The Flowerdown Link 1918-1978", by Squadron Leader L L Burch, RAF (Ret'd), who researched the same issue over 30 years ago: "My first objective was to ascertain how the name of Flowerdown came about and after considerable help from several sources mentioned in my acknowledgements and the assistance of the retired gentleman who owned much of the land in that area during the years concerned, I find that the name Flower Down existed as far back as 1750, it probably became hyphenated and, shortly prior to the take-over by the Royal Air Force (or even during the take-over) the hyphen had been dropped and the name Flowerdown brought into general use." He also wrote that, "It is certain that the name Flower Down is attached to the site of the RAF Station on both the Enclosure Award map of 1844 and on Taylor's map of Hampshire of 1750, in the majority of other instances the area is simply referred to as 'farm land' ".

The Squadron Leader was certainly thorough in researching his details, so I am trying to follow his example now!

I have contemporary OS maps of the area, as well as a 1945 map (with full 1930 revisions), and they all still used 2 words at that time, to describe an area that appears on the map as open down land.

I have to say that I have yet to see a hyphenated example, but I suspect that it was the RAF who used the single word spelling for the name of their base, for reasons of keeping things simple for their recruits, resulting in the single word spelling coming into common use.

Finally, if you visit Winchester and ask for directions to Flowerdown (however you spell it) don't be too surprised if you don't get much help. The area, once known as Flower Down, now lies between the housing estate known as Harestock, the village of Littleton and the A272 road and most of that area is now used by the Army Training Regiment with the address, Sir John Moore Barracks, Andover Road, Winchester, so I believe that the name Flowerdown, however spelt, is rarely used in the modern context and it certainly doesn't appear on my 1959 one inch OS map. In fact, in 1959 the area still appears as undeveloped land, with no sign of buildings, presumably for security reasons.

Mike

[Wintonian]

Hywyn,

Apologies to you also, for a slow response, but thank you so very much for drawing my attention to the on-line Welsh newspapers site. What a fantastic new research resource. As Dave has said, there is absolutely no doubt that the links, which you so very kindly provided, relate to the same Howard Roberts that I have been researching and, as you suggested, other search combinations have provided me with a lot of fascinating new information about the man. What a great result, I am so pleased that I took the plunge and registered with the Great War Forum. However, whilst I have no doubt that he was in the RAMC, and came from Borth, I am still not yet able to positively identify the actual RAMC unit he served in, and from what I have read elsewhere, that is not an uncommon problem with RAMC men, so it may never be resolved. But I shall not give up yet. Thanks again for your invaluable help, though.

I had previously found the photograph which you also mentioned, but thanks also for making sure that I hadn't missed it.

I hope that you found the British Pathe link of some interest. A very brief excerpt from one of the clips was actually shown on the BBC South Today program a few weeks ago, but that was before I had identified exactly where the inspection was filmed.

Mike

[sotonmate]

Mike

Thank you for the eloquent explanation ! I shall now reciprocate and try to find time to look in the war diary on my visit next week

[Hywyn]

Sotonmate

Do you know if the FA Diaries are being digitised? I believe I can identify a sizeable chunk of the initial contingents of these three FA's (many 48XXX numbers) to geographical areas of interest to me in North West Wales. I'd be interested to know if the 129th WD you examine has any lists or names any of it's men in it's daily activities. Or at least the bits you get to see and especially Mametz (July 1916) and the weeks following.

Hywyn

[Wintonian]

Sotonmate

If you have the time, I can only say that I will be very grateful...

thanks for your appreciation.

Mike

[sotonmate]

Hywyn

OK, will see how the clock unwinds !

[sotonmate]

Sotonmate

Do you know if the FA Diaries are being digitised? I believe I can identify a sizeable chunk of the initial contingents of these three FA's (many 48XXX numbers) to geographical areas of interest to me in North West Wales. I'd be interested to know if the 129th WD you examine has any lists or names any of it's men in it's daily activities. Or at least the bits you get to see and especially Mametz (July 1916) and the weeks following.

Hywyn

H

I copied Jul and the weeks following,send your e-mail by PM and they are yours. No specific lists of names but a fair few names sprinkled around the text with duties here and there. I also noted a book in the NA Library for the period including WW1 of RAMC medics who served and their postings. There are 2 volumes but Vol 1 is for an earlier timespan.

[sotonmate]

Wintonian

The War Diary WO95/2549/1 has only a first entry on 1.12.1915 as simply Winchester and moving off same day to Southampton for shipping out on "Manchester Importer" to Le Havre.

[sotonmate]

I meant to note the library filing reference but,unusually,haven't done so !

It is only a Medical Officer reference.

If you go to Kew yourself it is in the Regimental and Divisional History section,at the beginning of the rows from the Reading Room end,about hip high !

If you don't go I will try to remember to get the ref next time I go,but weeks away !

You could also interrogate the NA Library Catalogue online.

[sotonmate]

Hywyn

33 pages of WD from 1 Jul to 30 Sep on the way with plenty of RAMC officer names featured.

[Hywyn]

Sotonmate

All arrived in my inbox. Thanks for this. Greatly appreciated.

Hywyn

[Wintonian]

Sotonmate

Thank you very much for making the time to check the war diaries for me - at least I know now that there is no mention of Flowerdown (or Flower Down) in the war diaries. Your help is very much appreciated.

Since my first post, I have bought a copy of, "A History of the 38th (Welsh) Division", edited by Lieut.-Colonel J.E.Munby, C.M.G., D.S.O., and it contains just over a page of general information about the RAMC component of the Welsh Division.

The book records that:

"...all three ambulances (ie, those that became the 129th, 130th & 131st) moved to Prestatyn on the 2nd March (1915), where they remained until the move to Winchester."

The only other interesting reference to Winchester is as follows:

"However in August, 1915, the Division was gradually concentrated at Winchester and given full opportunites for training on the very suitable terrain at that place."

However, having found one or two other snippets of very useful information, on various web sites (with grateful thanks to Hywyn, for his initial Welsh newspaper search tips, which led me down other equally fascinating paths), I am now totally convinced that the 129th Field Ambulance was definitely at Winchester's "Flowerdown" camp during the tail end of 1915.

This forum is certainly a great source of information.

Thanks to everyone.

Wintonian

[Wintonian]

Hywyn

If you have not already seen it, you may be interested in viewing the following:

http://www.peoplescollection.org.uk/Item/30727-soldiers-small-book-and-its-contents-belongin

A Peter Walkingshaw (apparently from the Aberystwyth area) appears to have Howard Lloyd Roberts' "Soldiers' Small Book" in his possession, along with Howard's medals and some of his sketches of the Somme, which you may find interesting - I certainly did.

It certainly seems to confirm my supposition that Howard Lloyd Roberts served in the 129th Field Ambulance, but it would be nice to know if that information was actually written inside Howard's book, or whether the current owner of the book has a family connection with Howard.

I have tried to find a way to contact Peter Walkingshaw, to possibly find out more about Howard, without success so far.

I get the impression that you may have slightly closer connections with the Aberystwyth area than my non-existent connections, from here in Winchester, so if you are able to track him down, there may be even more of a story to be uncovered, if you might share my detailed interest...

if you do share my detailed interest, have a look at the following:

http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3413328/ART61/borth%20cartoonist

http://www.ceredigion.gov.uk/utilities/action/act_download.cfm?mediaid=24467

http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/artists/lloyd-roberts-howard

I am researching Howard Lloyd Roberts as I have copies of some of his work, produced while he was at camp in Winchester, and I am keen to write up as much about him as I can, especially as I have been unable to find a marriage record for him, so I think it unlikely that he has any direct descendants.

You may already be aware that his cartoons were published in the "Souvenirs of the Welsh Division", published by the Western Mail in 1917, 1918 and 1919, a publication which was probably inspired by the so called "trench magazines", which it seems Howard Lloyd Roberts also contributed to. I have seen a reference elsewhere on this site to some of the 129th Field Ambulance war diaries containing sketches - I wonder if Howard's talents were called upon to produce them?

In any event, I am most grateful to you for alerting me to the on-line Welsh Newspapers, the discovery of which eventually led me to finding all of the above web links, so thank you very much again for leading me to this treasure trove of pictures and information.

Wintonian.

[larney]

Wintonian,

I can put you in touch with Pete if you still want to speak to him?

Just PM me, and I'll forward it to him.

Steve

[combat gynaecologist]

I have been researching the 130th (St John) Field Ambulance and have compiled a fairly complete nominal roll for that unit. I the course of my research it became obvious that the regimental number of the men that formed the 129th, 130th and 131st Field Ambulances are all in the 48000 range. The 129th arrived in France on the 2nd Dec 1915, the 130th on the 4th and the 131st on the 6th. Cpl Howard L Roberts (RAMC 48508) medal index card shows he arrived in France on the 2nd Dec 1915 and so you can be fairly certain he was in the 129th Field Ambulance. I would be very interested if you come across and photographs etc of the 130th (St John) Field Ambulance.

[clive_hughes]

Hi CG,

Have sent you a PM on the subject of the 130th FA.

Clive

[Wintonian]

Hi CG,

Thank you very much for confirming the date of entry to France as being the 2nd December. I had seen Howard's medal card but I wasn't sure how to interpret the way the date had been written, whether it was the 2nd, or the 21st of December, so it is helpful to know the exact date, especially as I have now seen other evidence to confirm that Howard Lloyd Roberts was definitely in the 129th Field Ambulance.

If I ever find any photos of the 130th (St John) Field Ambulance I will indeed let you know.

My understanding is that they also would have been in one of the Winchester camps from August, 1915, until they left for France.

If you already know at which camp they were based, whilst at Winchester, I would be interested to know, please.

Wintonian

[Hywyn]

Wintonian

I have just realised I haven't answered your post #20. I apologise for this. I see Steve John has stepped into the breach and hopefully you will have been sorted. Aberystwyth is a tad south of my area of interest, which is mainly central Caernarfonshire.

CG

I can identify (names and addresses) about 150 men in the 48xxx range. If you want these then PM me your email

Hywyn

[DaveKey]

I have been researching the 130th (St John) Field Ambulance and have compiled a fairly complete nominal roll for that unit. I the course of my research it became obvious that the regimental number of the men that formed the 129th, 130th and 131st Field Ambulances are all in the 48000 range. The 129th arrived in France on the 2nd Dec 1915, the 130th on the 4th and the 131st on the 6th. Cpl Howard L Roberts (RAMC 48508) medal index card shows he arrived in France on the 2nd Dec 1915 and so you can be fairly certain he was in the 129th Field Ambulance. I would be very interested if you come across and photographs etc of the 130th (St John) Field Ambulance.

Hi

If you are still looking for information on the 130th Field Ambulance I thought you might be interested in the following image from Avington Park Camp (one of the Morn a Hill camps to the east if Winchester)

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/1914/1914-features.htm?id=341&rstart=11&itemtype=photo

Interestingly it also mentions the 129th for whom there is definite evidence for them at the Flower Down camp to the north of the city. This appears to be a reflection of the way units moved around within the area, something I have seen for other units from other Divisions who assembled around Winchester in 1914 & 1915

Cheers

Dave

[Guest]

On 01/09/2013 at 00:40, Wintonian said:

I have strong evidence (from messages on contemporary postcards) that the 129th Field Ambulance were at Flower Down Camp (on the western outskirts of Winchester) during 1915. I have ascertained from other sources that, along with the 130th and 131st Field Ambulances, the 129th Field Ambulance were part of the 38th (Welsh) Division, assembled at Winchester during 1915, and in France by January 1916. I would be very pleased to hear from anyone who could confirm the precise location of the 129th Field Ambulance during 1915.

In addition, if anyone has access to any information which could confirm that Howard Lloyd Roberts (RAMC service number 48508) served in the 129th Field Ambulance (or even in another RAMC unit) that would be the icing on the cake for me. I have viewed his medal index card, but it seems that his service record has not survived.

If you would like to view a couple of clips of archive film of Queen Mary inspecting troops from the 38th (Welsh) Division (on the 29th November, 1915) at Crawley Down, near Winchester, search the 'British Pathe' web site for 'Queen Mary Winchester'. This was a recent unexpected find and well worth a look.

Wintonian

Hi wintonian are you still around i have some information on Howard...

On 01/09/2013 at 00:40, Wintonian said:

I have strong evidence (from messages on contemporary postcards) that the 129th Field Ambulance were at Flower Down Camp (on the western outskirts of Winchester) during 1915. I have ascertained from other sources that, along with the 130th and 131st Field Ambulances, the 129th Field Ambulance were part of the 38th (Welsh) Division, assembled at Winchester during 1915, and in France by January 1916. I would be very pleased to hear from anyone who could confirm the precise location of the 129th Field Ambulance during 1915.

In addition, if anyone has access to any information which could confirm that Howard Lloyd Roberts (RAMC service number 48508) served in the 129th Field Ambulance (or even in another RAMC unit) that would be the icing on the cake for me. I have viewed his medal index card, but it seems that his service record has not survived.

If you would like to view a couple of clips of archive film of Queen Mary inspecting troops from the 38th (Welsh) Division (on the 29th November, 1915) at Crawley Down, near Winchester, search the 'British Pathe' web site for 'Queen Mary Winchester'. This was a recent unexpected find and well worth a look.

Wintonian

 

Hi Wintonian are you still around i have information on Howard ?