Guest LeeWard Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 From the CWGC site i have the following info on my wifes Great Uncle Name- Johson Arthur Ralph Nationality - United Kingdom Rank- Rifleman Regiment - Kings Royal Rifle Corps Unit Text - 16th Bn Date of Death - 01/02/1917 Service No - R/8857 Casualty Type - Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Ref - Pier and Face 13A and 13B Is it possible to find out how he died? also does the unit 16th Bn refer to the 16th battalion? This would be useful to know as I would have a starting point for any possible war diary search. many thanks Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Lee - Did he come from a small town? Or its rural hinterland? If so I reckon you have a better chance of finding references to him in old newspapers. Harder job for big city men. Check out the old weekly newspaper files for the period. They will usually have obituaries of men who fell. If you are v. lucky there may even be a report of the 'letter of condolence' sent by the chaplain/platoon officer ... However, few of these IMHO tell the full story ... more often than not these will include 'he was shot through the head and died instantly' , 'was blown up by a shell and would not have felt any pain' etc. Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Hi Lee, Yes Bn. is the short form for battalion. Though I would not hold out too much hope for finding him mentioned in the War Diary, if there is one. It tends to be officers and warrant officers who get their names mentioned - unless of course there is a galllantry medal awarded. As far as ORs and NCOs go very rarely do they get mentioned. All the best in your research, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Arnold Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Hi Lee, Have you tried the mother site The Long long trail. Looks like the 16 Battalion was the Church Lads Brigade formed in Denham Bucks. Attached to 100th Brigade 33rd Division. I have been trying the relevant cumputer wizardry to post a link but have totally failed. Trying again lets hope it works Click here. Hope this helps. Good luck in your research. Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LeeWard Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Many thanks for the replys Desmond 7- Yes he came from a small town near Nottingham, not sure if the local newspapers have records dating back that far but will have a look into it. Tim- I'm not particularly looking for his name in a war diary, just trying to find out what he was involved in, as the only living relative from that side of the family wasn't even born when the war finished, and as such very little is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Lee, I don't have the relevant CD but what does SDITGW say about him and how many 16th Bn men died same day?? Anyone? Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hangleton Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 http://www.1837online.com/Trace2web/ try this - should lead you to overseas death certificates, but as noted in the replies above you probably won't get much detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviltaxman Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 A quick check on SDGW shows only 8 men (all Rifleman) died on 1/2/17.... but no officers. All 8 are shown as KIA. Bellamy, Arthur R/2055 Clarke, Edward Raine R/27747 Devney, George R/8548 Johnson, Arthur Ralph R/8857 Lee, Frederick John C/9501 Shearwood, Samuel A/203173 Smith, George William R/3330 Smitten, Harry A/203257 (previously Z/1201 Rifle Brigade) Not much help I'm afraid. Les. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LeeWard Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Many Thanks Gentleman, He his listed in the post by eviltaxman. Pardon my ignorance but what does SDGW stand for? cheers Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Many Thanks Gentleman, He his listed in the post by eviltaxman. Pardon my ignorance but what does SDGW stand for? cheers Lee Soldiers Died in the Great War - a CD-ROM database of the original 1920s Roll of Honour. Considering the eight KIA eviltaxman isolated, a look at the relevent War Diary might prove interesting, as it was probably a collective event - either a raid on or by enemy forces, shelling, etc. The WD will enable you to pinpoint where it actually happened, which in terms of a man comemorated on a memorial, this can often be tens of kilometres away. Having checked, I see that all eight are on the Thiepval Memorial, so I would hazard a guess that either they were killed during an attack on enemy lines and their bodies were never recovered, or they may have been originally buried in a cemetery that was subsequently "lost." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LeeWard Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 I have the war diary for the 16th bn Kings Royal Rifles that covers the date he died, but there is nothing significant mentioned. It appears they were in an area called Clery sur Somme, and from the 1st to the 3rd of Feb 1917, were involved in wire cutting on both fronts. cheers Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LeeWard Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 I,ve looked at the 1837online site as recommended by Hangleton, that gives me the info I alraedy knew, along with a ref to year 1917 Vol 1.79 Page 22, but can't find anything on the site to lead me to this or a copy of the death certificate anybody able help? cheers Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevew Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 I,ve looked at the 1837online site as recommended by Hangleton, that gives me the info I alraedy knew, along with a ref to year 1917 Vol 1.79 Page 22, but can't find anything on the site to lead me to this or a copy of the death certificate anybody able help? cheers Lee Lee, This has given the certificate entry in the registers............you can now go to the GRO's website and order that certificate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcderms Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Eight men dying on the same day is tto many to not get a mention in the war diary. It may be that they were attached to the RE on a fatigue or wiring party? Possibly even used as scouts?! Over to the Pals to ID the RE btn in that area! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LeeWard Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Eight men dying on the same day is tto many to not get a mention in the war diary. It may be that they were attached to the RE on a fatigue or wiring party? Possibly even used as scouts?! Over to the Pals to ID the RE btn in that area! You would think that it would be mentioned somewhere Anybody able to shed any further light? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Eight men dying on the same day is tto many to not get a mention in the war diary. It may be that they were attached to the RE on a fatigue or wiring party? Possibly even used as scouts?! Over to the Pals to ID the RE btn in that area! Plus the fact that they all have no known grave. Checking SDitGW either side of the date would be useful to see if there was a steady daily depletion at the time, of if this is a single stand-out event. It'd be interesting to hear exactly what the War Diary does say for this day, even if it doesn't hint at this particular loss of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LeeWard Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 Eight men dying on the same day is tto many to not get a mention in the war diary. It may be that they were attached to the RE on a fatigue or wiring party? Possibly even used as scouts?! Over to the Pals to ID the RE btn in that area! Plus the fact that they all have no known grave. Checking SDitGW either side of the date would be useful to see if there was a steady daily depletion at the time, of if this is a single stand-out event. It'd be interesting to hear exactly what the War Diary does say for this day, even if it doesn't hint at this particular loss of life. Hope this works Attached should be the relevant page from the war diary cheers Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hangleton Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 QUOTE (LeeWard @ Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:40:14 +0000) I,ve looked at the 1837online site as recommended by Hangleton, that gives me the info I alraedy knew, along with a ref to year 1917 Vol 1.79 Page 22, but can't find anything on the site to lead me to this or a copy of the death certificate anybody able help? cheers Lee Lee, This has given the certificate entry in the registers............you can now go to the GRO's website and order that certificate Make a note of the QUARTER it was registered in as well - then the certificate will be (a bit) cheaper. E.g Jan/Feb/Mar. Then use this link http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ to order it But don't get your hopes up for much detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted 24 September , 2004 Share Posted 24 September , 2004 Eight men dying on the same day is tto many to not get a mention in the war diary. It may be that they were attached to the RE on a fatigue or wiring party? Possibly even used as scouts?! Over to the Pals to ID the RE btn in that area! Plus the fact that they all have no known grave. Checking SDitGW either side of the date would be useful to see if there was a steady daily depletion at the time, of if this is a single stand-out event. It'd be interesting to hear exactly what the War Diary does say for this day, even if it doesn't hint at this particular loss of life. Hope this works Attached should be the relevant page from the war diary cheers Lee Curiouser and curiouser. I know this might sound a bit dim, but is there anything for 31 January that might have a bearing on the loss of life? It could be that there was an attack late that evening, with subsequent detahs actually being recorded as the next day. That said, it does seem to be one of the more minimalist Diaries. Checking deaths in the following days might be useful here in seeing just how little was being recorded in the Diary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LeeWard Posted 24 September , 2004 Share Posted 24 September , 2004 Eight men dying on the same day is tto many to not get a mention in the war diary. It may be that they were attached to the RE on a fatigue or wiring party? Possibly even used as scouts?! Over to the Pals to ID the RE btn in that area! Plus the fact that they all have no known grave. Checking SDitGW either side of the date would be useful to see if there was a steady daily depletion at the time, of if this is a single stand-out event. It'd be interesting to hear exactly what the War Diary does say for this day, even if it doesn't hint at this particular loss of life. Hope this works Attached should be the relevant page from the war diary cheers Lee Curiouser and curiouser. I know this might sound a bit dim, but is there anything for 31 January that might have a bearing on the loss of life? It could be that there was an attack late that evening, with subsequent detahs actually being recorded as the next day. That said, it does seem to be one of the more minimalist Diaries. Checking deaths in the following days might be useful here in seeing just how little was being recorded in the Diary. There is only one entry for the 31st Jan detailing them at Clery sur Somme but the day seems to have passed off without incident. The only mention of casualties around that date seems to be on the 29th Jan when the Bouchavesnes ravine was heavily bombarded, and C company had two men killed at a pumping station. Cheers Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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