Anzacs

[PhilB]

I acquired this bookmark in Oz. It features Jacka, so is presumably well on in the war. Can any Ozpeople tell me which battalions these would be and were they ever called Pals` battalions? Phil B

[Guest bonza]

Phil

Am pretty safe in saying there were no Battalions that would qualify as Pals. The Sportsmans battalion was apparently the "baby" of one John Wren who may have been the Aussie model for Larry ? King. He "controlled" boxing, horse racing and associated gambling, and it has been "reported" that it was one of his plans to buy respectability. Again don't know details but think he offered a bounty to "eligible" recruits and would finance their kitting out. Precedents had been set by the gift of aircraft to the AFC, but the Sportsmens idea was blocked as being elitist.

So the proposed battalion never took the field. Jacka stayed with his 14th Battalion, which called themselves Jacka's Mob.

Another Battalion was called the Joan of Arcs, because the CO and several of his officers were named Leane, [made of all Leanes]

The only specially recruited Battalion was actually raised by its CO who was a politician. Don't know the exact details, but apparently he had also tried to recruit a second battalion.

There are a couple of good sites setting out the battle order of the AIF. The easiest is on the www.awm.gov.au website , feature military units. A more detailed is at the ADFA Uni of NSW site.

If someone else could put the links HERE it would help, otherwise I'll try n doit termorrer.

Pat

Edited 24 September , 2004 by bonza

[Blackblue]

Phil,

The units in the AIF were regionally raised and many were generally affiliated with the various Australian states and some particular areas of states...particularly the Infantry Battalions and the Light Horse Regiments. If men enlisted together in a certain area it is highly likely that they would be posted to the same unit together.

For example the 9th, 15th, 25th, 26th, 31st, 41st, 42nd, 47th and 49th were all regarded as Queensland Infantry Battalions. This fell by the wayside a little as casualties mounted and reinforcements arrived although most men from a particular state still ended up in one of their home states infantry battalions.

The Army Reserve Infantry Battalions in today's Australian Army are still regionally based and descendents of the AIF...the current Queensland units being the 9th, 25th/49th, 31st and 42nd Battalions which form part of the Royal Queensland Regiment.

The movie 'Gallipoli' provides a good example of men from the same area being together in the same unit being the 10th Light Horse Regiment '...men from Western Australia'. Likewise the series 'Anzacs' focuses on the 8th Infantry Battalion from Victoria which I think was raised around Ballarat.

The order of battle is at the following link.

http://www.unsw.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/main.html

[Robert Dunlop]

The same is true of the New Zealanders. The regiments were based on regions, smaller in size and population than Australia. Then, as now, Auckland was the largest region in terms of population. But the whole country comprised small tight-knit predominantly rural or semi-rural communities. Absolutely nothing on the scale of the English cities for example. Despite this, the effects of the losses had a major effect on the collective psyche. Several previous threads on Anzac Day and its importance have pointed to this modern day legacy of the Great War.

Robert

[Blackblue]

This said I don't think the advertisement is specifically for enlisting in any particular 'Sportsmans' Battalion. I believe it is more of a general recruiting poster which would have been used in all areas.

Rgds

Tim

[Guest bonza]

G'day Tim

Agree with all you say in the first post!

However, I feel a XXXX to a Fosters challenge coming on about the poster!

Am confident it was the baby of John Wren, owner of Melbourne Stadium, and patron of Collingwood Aussie Rules Club.

He was the 'target' of "Power Without Glory" for which the author Frank Hardy underwent a pretty extensive libel trial. THe ABC did a beaut mini-series in the 70's. Wren "seemed" to be very fond of VC winners, and the inclusion of Jacka would fit that 'form'.

It is also feasible that Wren was responsible for Les Darcy's fate. Am on 'dangerous' ground here though. He certainly was in a position to prevent Les getting bouts against his boxers or at his stadiums.

[i've jist gotta practise that posting links routine]

[Guest bonza]

Just to elaborate on points made by Tim & Robert. The mix of country & bush representation that was achieved in the Victorian Battalions of First Division AIF could be depicted by superimposing a wheel over the state map, with the hub over Melbourne. The 8th therefore included not only Ballarat and western Victoria but also the western suburbs such as Footerscray. 7th Bn was Northern and included Essendon.

After Gallipoli the 1st Div was literally cut in half to form the 5th Div. Half the survivors were transferred to pup Bns which usually had the same colours turned vertical, and [e.g.] 7 became 57. Both Div's were therefore half veterans & half recruits.

The 1918 mutinies were partly due to a reluctance to disband some of the pups, so that numbers might be kept up to strength in other units.

The AIF was not formed directly from a standing army, but the above geographic basis was adapted from the Militia network that had been set up to train a "future" army. Existing Militia units were grouped as described, but "members" did not automatically transfer to the AIF and were under no official compulsion to enlist.

The majority of Officers & many NCO' did have military 'experience' though.

[ have been unable to locate Mel Gibson's Melbourne Horse Cadets ]

Pat

PS

Now look what you've gone & done Phil. And you still don't have THE answer

PPS

Tim. Just noticed the warney comment. thanx. was worried 'bout the lead balloon. don't take the above as argumentive

Edited 25 September , 2004 by bonza

[duckman]

To further elaborate, taking Pat's example of 7 Bn, we see in the AIF not so much Pals Battalions as Pals Companies or Platoons. From the original mustering of 7th Battalion (8 companies):

D Coy, 7th Bn was heavily recruited from Essendon / Moonee Ponds / Flemington - adjacent suburbs in the inner NW in Melbourne. Out of 121 that I looked at

69 came from within 3 miles of Ascot Vale

22 came from what might be termed adjacent recruiting centres (Footscray, Brunswick, Carlton etc).

Of the remaining 31,

13 came from other parts of Melbourne,

2 from satelite towns outside Melbourne,

13 from country Victoria and 2 from interstate.

E Coy was raised in the nearby suburb of Footscray (by my terminology, the neighbouring recruiting district). Of 113 men,

65 within 2 miles of an arbitrary point in South Footscray

24 from neighbouring areas

8 from sattelite towns (mostly Bacchus Marsh, which was / is outside Melbourne, but not so far from Footscray)

3 from other suburbs of Melbourne

11 from country Victoria and 2 from interstate.

As has been noted the regional nature of battalions became less and less pronounced as the war progressed. This is even more true at the Company level. But the original force did have a distinct local feel to its units, just at a lower level than the New Armies.

The militia that predated the AIF was regional. Essendon, Footscray, Brunswick and Carlton all had pre-war militia units and you will find examples of volunteers from these being joining up together and being kept together in the A.I.F. battalions.

[Blackblue]

Certainly didn't take it as argumentative Pat. Being a Queenslander I must say I have never heard of John Wren. I had seen the poster elsewhere and thought it was used more as a general recruiting poster to appeal more to young men about and the great 'fun' of going away to war....sort of like a football road trip....than specifically to enlist a purely VFL battalion or similar. Didn't the Brits do a similar one? Anyway...will be great to seen the Lions make it four in a row tommorrow when they demolish Port. Funny....no Victorian teams in this one.....is there?

It wasn't just the 'pup' battalions they tried to disband....it was one from each Brigade....the glorious 25th Battalion suffered this fate (only at the second attempt after the initial 'mutiny') and became two companies of the 26th Battalion.

To expand on duckman's point...a number of battalions were even formed with companies from different smaller states...for example the 15th and 26th had both Queensland and Tasmanian elements. Pretty strange considering they are thousands of km apart.

To try and answer Phil's question...I suppose the answer is no...they were not recruited in the manner Pals Battalions were...but also yes...they usually had a strong regional connection with many 'pals' serving together.

Rgds

TD

[Andrew P]

There were also instances of men enlisting in groups for the units such as the Railway Companies, Tunnelling Companies and other specialised fields.

From WA, No.3 section of the Railway Company was made of mainly of men from the Midland & Fremantle railway workshops and I'm sure it was similar for other states.

Similarly No 3 Tunneling Company had a strong Kalgoorlie/Coolgardie feel.

[Guest bonza]

TD

If I wanted to get into a real blue, I'd say being a Queeenslander you wouldn't have heard of any Good Footballers, and only know about the good Victorians that have sold themselves to Brisbane for the 30 bits of silver that the AFL keeps tipping in up there.

But on the off chance that you might get down here some day, I won't say anything like that.

OK! Hadn't been aware of other disbandments. Tend to treat Pat Hogan as the Oracle. Seen the ANZACS too often I s'pose.

Andrew has raised Eddie Maguire on another thread. Wren was Eddie's equivalent at Collingwood around WW1. Extremely interesting character, I may even start up athread on him.

ooRoo

Pat

[Guest bonza]

Have now recovered from mental block, and remembered No 1 rule.

Look it up on www.awm.gov.au search our collections

Searching Jacka throws up Phil's Poster under ARTV00026. and attributes it to "Sportsmen's Committee, State Parliamentary Recruiting Committee"

It was printed in 1917.

From 'elsewhere'.....

Jacka later became Mayor of the Melbourne suburb of St Kilda and is buried there.

A handout for cemetery tours included

"... others exploited his fame. Prime Minister Billy Hughes tried to lure him home to take part in his recruiting campaign. Jacka refused but his image appeared on a government recruitment poster. Melbourne's famous SP Bookie, John Wren, had offered 500 pounds to the first Australian VC. "

[Desmond7]

In today's dough what was the 500 worth?

And - although this should be in 'Utterly' - despite the sporting theme here ... what was the great aussie movie about 'rules' or 'league' which featured a great terrace song 'Get in there ???Kawailis?? in there and fight, show them your ??? show them your might?'

Famous Aussie character actor, who was alson in Anzacs, starred?

Des

[Guest bonza]

Talking of mental Blocks.

The original answer should have been.

The 1st AIF was, or should have been, known as the Ballymena Pals, the men from* the city of the seven towers.

*If not actually from there, they would have left a record of their connection to the city for Desmond to uncover during the following century.

[Guest bonza]

Sorry Des.

The Devil made me do it.

Am too lazy to chase up the conversion to todays rate. From 1825 the 'Australian' pound was tied to the "Pound Sterling', they were therefore 1 for 1, at the time of WW1.* [This statement results from a prelim search of old History books]

Co-incidently its the AFL Grand Final this arvo, and it a bit hard to concentrate, but

the song is "Up there Cazaley". Please don't use terms such as 'rules' and l****e in the same sentence. The song was commissioned as an official Rules promotion. [1970/80's I think]

Cazaley was a South Melbourne ruckman, and the legend goes that it was how his rover encouraged him, and told him where to 'direct the hit out'. Other versions are that he often took great leaps when marking the ball. Club supporters took up the 'cry' and it passed into common usage to cover any aerial activity at all.

It was used during WW2 as an Aussie rallying call along the lines of Allah or Bonsai

its 'show us your muscle' show us your might' * Wrong again! they jist sang it at the GFinal

Will also take the Movie question on notice. It sounds like "The Club" , centred around John Wren & Eddie Maguires, Collingwood Magpies Rules Club, but am not too familiar with it,

ooRoo

Pat

Edited 25 September , 2004 by bonza

[Blackblue]

TD

If I wanted to get into a real blue, I'd say being a Queeenslander you wouldn't have heard of any Good Footballers, and only know about the good Victorians that have sold themselves to Brisbane for the 30 bits of silver that the AFL keeps tipping in up there.

But on the off chance that you might get down here some day, I won't say anything like that.

OK! Hadn't been aware of other disbandments. Tend to treat Pat Hogan as the Oracle. Seen the ANZACS too often I s'pose.

Andrew has raised Eddie Maguire on another thread. Wren was Eddie's equivalent at Collingwood around WW1. Extremely interesting character, I may even start up athread on him.

ooRoo

Pat

Hijacking the thread a bit but what the heck. Wondered how long it would take you to come back with that one!! C'mon mate there at least two or three born and bred Queenslanders in the team!! Its not just the money that lures them here its the climate! Must admit I am a Rugby League man myself...like many Queenslanders I couldn't have given a hoot about the AFL until the Lions started doing alright. You will be pretty chuffed to know that prior to the Lions...of any of the teams...I used to sort of follow Carlton.

Pat Hogan....is definitely the orcale.

Tim

[Guest bonza]

Des

Just checked out "The Club". It starred Jack Thompson, directed by Bruce Beresford. Your connection was therefore with "Breaker Morant". And we won't go down that path for fear of wrecking international goodwill.

Tim

Yeah, you just get called on to wave the flag sometimes. I used to go to the outer at North Melbourne to watch the shinboners get trampled in the mud year after year. Got all excited when they 'bought' Barassi & plenty of old campaigners to get our 1st premiership in the 70's. The old days of the local boys getting stuck into those from adjacent suburbs died then! Its a bit hipocritical to cry foul when someone comes up with more money or a better scheme.

Can't really bring myself to wish your mob good luck, Port are the lesser of the 2 evils, can only hope that the result is one point kicked after the final siren.

ooRoo

Pat

OK I was born the year Freud died. That gives me 2 excuses, the second is old age

Genuinely meant to say Pat Cleary.

Edited 25 September , 2004 by bonza

[Guest bonza]

Duckman

Have been holding - off before inflicting this on you, but too bad, here goes!

Does your database cover the Rutherglen recruits to the Seventh. My man is Jackie Schwarer.

Pat

[Desmond7]

Spot on Pat - I remember seeing 'The Club' during an Australian film season on BBC2 many years ago.

The other picture which stood out was 'The Odd Angry Shot.'

Cheers

Des

[duckman]

Duckman

Have been holding - off before inflicting this on you, but too bad, here goes!

Does your database cover the Rutherglen recruits to the Seventh. My man is Jackie Schwarer.

Pat

Pat,

My "Database"? Bwhhahahahaha! You should read my plaintive reflections about Access (chit-chat, I think) before you start using the "D" word at me.

I just took a quick squizz at the embarkation roll on the AWM site, and tallied up the suburbs from the two companies I looked at. Took me all of about 10 minutes,

a pen and paper.

Don't know much about Rutherglen's contribution to the Great War, I'm afraid, but I hope it included some of their best tawnies!

I see your mystery man appears on the nominal roll on one of those pages that got eaten by the clerk's dog. Yurgh, what a mess! I can't even read the Service Number. Good luck with him.

Des7,

The money doesn't really convert - how much did an X-Box (okay, how about a car) cost in 1914?. 500 pounds then was probably 5-7 years ordinary wages. Enough to buy a big house with plenty left over. Perhaps had the buying power of the order of $4-700,000* Aussies Dollars today - say 150 - 250,000 Punds.

Okay, you can go back to talking footy now. And to think I left Melbourne to get away from it

Cheers

Duckman

*not that you can actually buy a house in Australia any more for those prices. Figures are approximate, to say the least.

[Guest bonza]

Don't know much about Rutherglen's contribution to the Great War, I'm afraid, but I hope it included some of their best tawnies!

Phil B has probably given up in disgust by now.

If not, I s'pose I could offer to crack my hoardrd Campbell's Bobbie Burns Tawny in honour of his birthday, and in memory of your D.....woteva.

Do know a bit about Rutherglen's contribution to WW2 though. My cousin was home on leave & getting married. His father met Old Man Morriss in the town, and was asked if there was anything he wanted. The father said a dozen red would be nice, knowing good grog was pretty hard to come by around 1944. The reception was memorable, 12 cases of premium reds went down real well.

[robbie]

The order of battle is at the following link.

http://www.unsw.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/main.html

Just found this thread. Many thanks for the excellent website.

Robbie

[Anzac16]

http://www.unsw.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/main.html

WOW great link