1914 Clasps to Territorials

[Terry]

Following on danny"s query regarding arrival dates in 1914 for Territorial units, I had listed the battalions which had arrived by 22 November, taken from a 1979 article by the late Tony Sudlow in Medals International. Tony had also listed the units which would have reached the front in time to qualify for the clasp:

1. 1st London Scottish 31 October

2. 1st HAC 9 November

3. 1/1st Hertfordshires 11 November

4. 1/16th Queens Westminster Rifles 16 November

5. 1/13th Kensingtons 18 November

6. 5th Royal Highlanders 18 November

7. 8th Royal Scots 21 November

8. 1/2nd Monmouths 21 November

9. 1/5th London Rifle Brigade 20 November

In addition he lists three units which just missed out:

1. 9th HLI 25 November

2. 10th Liverpool Scottish 27 November

3. 1/9th Queen Victorias Rifles 27 November

To complicate matters I have three Territorial groups in my collection:

1. 2110 Pte.H.P.Winter,1/9th Queen Victorias Rifles

2. 1464 Pte.A.W.Bolding,1/13th Kensingtons

3. 2287 Pte.W.J.Dooley, 4th Suffolks

Dooley is no problem, as there is no clasp or mention on the MIC. However, Winter's MIC clearly states he received the clasp, while Bolding's doesn't. Could it be that Winter was with an advance party of his battalion and reached the "sound of the guns" before his compatriots? Perhaps Bolding was not with the 1/13th when they moved up to the front, although he had landed with them on 3/4 November.

This is another example illustrating just how confusing the whole question of who did or didn't receiv the clasp can be.e

[dycer]

Terry,

I sympathise with your problem!

My Uncles served in the 8th Royal Scots and I have their trios but not their clasps.I have yet to check their MICs.

From the Battaion History written shortly after the War.

"The Battalion crossed to France with 8 Companies.The first work of the Battalion was digging communication trenches.No.42 Sgt D.Grieve killed on the night of the 15th November,was the first casualty.On the night of 20th November,four Companies went into the line for the first time."

It follows from above.If all the Battalion were digging communication trenches everyone is entitled to the clasp.However if only four Companies were in the line on 21 November only the members of these Companies may be entitled to the clasp.

I appreciate my Family may never have claimed the clasps(neither Uncle survived the War.)

I know, check their MICs!

George

[Muerrisch]

To make your head whirl, three, just three, of my 4RWF TF men got the clasp! Ther remainder of the battalion settled for the 1914 star.

[Tim Godden]

Hi there,

I met Alf Anderson last year who was a Pre-war TF soldier who served with the 5th RH and his 14 star does have the clasp.

At the time I was 22 and I said to him, I never thought I would hold the PM tin and 14 star with clasp whilst talking to the man who they belonged to!!!

All the best,

Tim

[dycer]

Tim,

As you know I have the medals (without clasps) and the "Box" but never had the opportunity to meet the men.

I wonder,though, how forthcoming they would have been about their experiences.

The only indirect information I received was that my Uncles "fraternised" on Christmas Day.

George

[Tim Godden]

Hi George,

I can scan your photos in now as everything is set up at my end. Finally internet and scanning capability at the same time!!!

Let me know and I will mail them to you or post them, whatever you would like.

All the best,

Tim

[dycer]

Tim,

Put them on the Forum and lets see if your point about the 8th HLI is correct!

George

[andyspiller]

Terry

My man Harry Spiller (see below) was awarded the clasp with the date of entry as 4/11/1914.

Regt'l history confirms that the Vics landed at Harvre on 5th Nov 1914

Regards

Andy

PS History also confirms that 3 weeks after arrival in F&F were spent training and that they did not go into the line until 29/11/1914.

By 21/11/1914 they had arrived at Bailleul and a Taube dropped a bomb close to the QVR billets - maybe that is the answer.

[Muerrisch]

We do need to remind ourselves that there is a world of difference between qualifying for the clasp and getting it. Any soldier no longer serving when the issues were made to units had to substantiate his claim, made on a form obtained from the Post Office. This also applied to next of kin.

To say a soldier "should have" had the clasp just because he is believed to have served with a unit which qualified is stretching credibility: there were a million and one reasons why a soldier should be left at le Havre, Rouen etc ...... even toothache or a common cold! The only authority for a soldier being issued with the clasp is the addendum to the roll of the 1914 star. These addenda even include date of issue, sometimes very many years after the event. The books are closed now, of course.