mills-bomb Posted 10 February , 2014 Share Posted 10 February , 2014 TTM, Totally agree, now wait to be shot at dawn. TT Well and truly seconded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 10 February , 2014 Share Posted 10 February , 2014 Surely this is another version of 'Last Post' at Ypres, that is to say, the memorial has become a tourist attraction. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick D Posted 10 February , 2014 Share Posted 10 February , 2014 I was glad to see the old steps go and the grass ramp used, admittedly I only used it in good, dry conditions and I'm able bodied. I don't like the new stairs, I would have liked to see the grass ramp developed and possibly a very gentle staircase made. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipdavies48 Posted 11 February , 2014 Share Posted 11 February , 2014 (edited) To have used the grass slope for a new staircase would have prevented vehicular access to the site for maintenance etc. A small crane was recently used to dismount the dragon so that it could be taken to be cleaned and repainted. I sympathise with the sense of loss in that the Dragon was in a natural unspoilt setting where people could sit and reflect and be at one with the stillness. I don't think that has changed. It is still a peaceful reflective setting and there will be many opportunities when visitors will have the site to themselves. We were faced with having to make a compromise which clearly some on this thread do not like. Whatever their views, which they are more than entitled to hold, many more people wish to access this memorial and many school children are brought here so that "they don't forget". This is important for the future so that new generations do not lose sight of the sacrifice which took place here. Whether Tom or TT like it or not the old steps were a liability and an accident waiting to happen. As the South Wales WFA we could have been facing a liability claim. We initially looked to remove the steps completely but the CWGC suggested a replacement. The design was one which they use and we were happy to be guided by them. What I find offensive is the manner in which opinions are penned and the phrases used. For example the reference to "shot at dawn" is not appropriate, neither that of the image of the back-wards firing gun, the references to ice cream vans and old mattrasses and people who are witless. There are many other sites on the battlefields where facilities have been created to enable visitors to visit safely and enjoy the experience that many of us have enjoyed for years. By all means criticise and express opinion but do so in a more dignified manner. Please judge the site as a whole when it is complete. Phil Edited 11 February , 2014 by archibaldsidney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 11 February , 2014 Share Posted 11 February , 2014 I think you have done the right thing Phil, you and South Wales WFA have a responsibility to ensure safety on-site, the actions you took to avoid injury to visitors was correctly carried out. And in association with CWGC and others shows a great deal of co-operation was required which is sometimes difficult to achieve....you have that ..well done! Some would prefer to have these sites left only for themselves to visit without anyone else being able to see where the Welsh fought so bravely, this is a seriously selfish attitude, and I wonder what their attitude would be if they were the ones facing liability for injury to visitors. There are talkers and doers.... let forum members decide who resides in which group..... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 11 February , 2014 Share Posted 11 February , 2014 Nice one Tom of course there should be proper safe access provided for the no doubt increase in visitor numbers expected over the next few years. Notwithstanding the public liability ramifications it would be distressing for those responsible for the site if anyone suffered injury due to inadequate access provision. As for the memorial becoming a tourist attraction hasn’t that been the case from the day it was inaugurated and are we not all tourists when we visit the battlefields? Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 11 February , 2014 Share Posted 11 February , 2014 Keep up the good work Phil. Hywyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghazala Posted 11 February , 2014 Share Posted 11 February , 2014 a iawn Cymru (and Phil) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 11 February , 2014 Share Posted 11 February , 2014 At least it is bit more Welsh in outlook than the 53rds from the 2nd world war! In this day and age safety has to take over from asthetics. Budget will come into it, you work with what you are given. If there was a problem and WFA get a nice bill for injury, everyone would be up in arms why was noting done. Ar*e has been covered for WFA here given the expected crowds that will appear in the next 4 years. Unfortunatly the tourists will come for the next 4 years so peace may not be everywhere. Post 2018 who can say what will happen to the tourists. Increase due to the intrest or decrease as "it's been done". Cymru am beth. 38th, 53rd and every welshman that served in any unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsA Posted 11 February , 2014 Share Posted 11 February , 2014 Phil, as an RWF enthusiast I endorse your efforts to improve the access. Hope to visit Mametz soon. Keep up the good work. ATB, Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghazala Posted 11 February , 2014 Share Posted 11 February , 2014 Phil.. I look forward to taking pictures in a years time when the shrubbery and trees have taken hold. This special place will always be one of my favourites to visit and it will always be memorable, tranquil and quiet to me. Well done to you all... Eddie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 11 February , 2014 Share Posted 11 February , 2014 Post 34 "Unfortunatly the tourists will come for the next 4 years so peace may not be everywhere" I ask this not to wind anyone up but to try and understand such statements as that above, who are the "tourists" if not you, me and all those on this forum who visit the battlefields or is there some kind of "super tourist" in the form of some elite being?. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 11 February , 2014 Share Posted 11 February , 2014 The steps on the northern bank were declared unsafe by Health and Safety and if used could have resulted in a serious accident raising the question of liability. I have wonky knees and an arthritic hip, and I never had any trouble with the old steps. A couple of years ago, I even went up them in the dark, all on my own, on a very damp October evening. My hackles instinctively rise when I hear stuff like 'were declared unsafe by Health and Safety' and 'could have resulted in a serious accident raising the question of liability', but I won't challenge you to produce the report of someone with professional/official standing in the H&S field in France, or the opinion of a properly-qualified legal expert re liability. I am happy to accept that the steps needed renewing or replacing, despite the fact that they were no worse than innumerable similar sets of steps in other rural locations in France or the UK. But the solution arrived at, with the assistance of the CWGC, an industrial bare-steel staircase of the kind used by utility companies to climb motorway embankments to substations and spillage ponds, is an absolute abomination. It is a pizzy little hill and all it needs is a dozen or so open platform steps, banked by boards held in place by deep-driven spikes and floored with grippy stones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 12 February , 2014 Share Posted 12 February , 2014 I have wonky knees and an arthritic hip, and I never had any trouble with the old steps. A couple of years ago, I even went up them in the dark, all on my own, on a very damp October evening. My hackles instinctively rise when I hear stuff like 'were declared unsafe by Health and Safety' and 'could have resulted in a serious accident raising the question of liability', but I won't challenge you to produce the report of someone with professional/official standing in the H&S field in France, or the opinion of a properly-qualified legal expert re liability. I am happy to accept that the steps needed renewing or replacing, despite the fact that they were no worse than innumerable similar sets of steps in other rural locations in France or the UK. But the solution arrived at, with the assistance of the CWGC, an industrial bare-steel staircase of the kind used by utility companies to climb motorway embankments to substations and spillage ponds, is an absolute abomination. It is a pizzy little hill and all it needs is a dozen or so open platform steps, banked by boards held in place by deep-driven spikes and floored with grippy stones. Would you be willing to accept responsibility and cost from any actions that would arise from injury incurred to a visitor(s) whilst ascending to the monument?? If so...... I'm sure the WFA and the other responsible groups would be willing to let you shoulder the burden of insurance.... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithfazzani Posted 12 February , 2014 Share Posted 12 February , 2014 Post 34 "Unfortunatly the tourists will come for the next 4 years so peace may not be everywhere" I ask this not to wind anyone up but to try and understand such statements as that above, who are the "tourists" if not you, me and all those on this forum who visit the battlefields or is there some kind of "super tourist" in the form of some elite being?. Norman Brings to mind the following poem, about a different place, but worth reflection at least. High Wood Ladies and gentlemen, this is High Wood, Called by the French, Bois des Fourneaux, The famous spot which in Nineteen-Sixteen, July, August and September was the scene Of long and bitterly contested strife, By reason of its High commanding site. Observe the effect of shell-fire in the trees Standing and fallen; here is wire; this trench For months inhabited, twelve times changes hands; (They soon fall in), used later as a grave. It has been said on good authority That in the fighting for this patch of wood Were killed somewhere above eight thousand men, Of whom the greater part were buried here, This mound on which you stand being ... Madame, please, You are requested kindly not to touch Or take away the Company's property As souvenirs; you'll find we have on sale A large variety, all guaranteed. As I was saying, all is as it was, This is an unknown British officer, The tunic having lately rotten off. Please follow me - this way ... The path, sir, please, The ground which was secured at great expense The Company keeps absolutely untouched, And in that dug-out (genuine) we provide Refreshments at a reasonable rate. You are requested not to leave about Paper, or ginger-beer bottles, or orange-peel, There are waste-paper baskets at the gate. PHILIP JOHNSTONE, 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 12 February , 2014 Share Posted 12 February , 2014 You are requested not to leave about Paper, or ginger-beer bottles, or orange-peel, There are waste-paper baskets at the gate. On that matter, my wife and I were somewhat disappointed to find, at Exeter Cathedral last Saturday, a visitor had seen fit to deposit an empty sandwich package under a chair in the Nave. Visitors will visit - that's what vistors do - and in this day and age facilities have to be provided, whether steps, handrails or rubbish containers. It's some years since i visited Mametz, but as it is obviously on the list of places to go, it makes sense to recognise the fact and provide a safe access. It might be over the top (or it might not), but it also has to be, as they say these days, "future proof". The alternative would be to ban anyone not meeting the strict criteria set down by the Great War Forum, of course. I'll leave it to others to set the standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted 12 February , 2014 Share Posted 12 February , 2014 Hi pals I'm going to "UNfollow" this topic now before my blood pressure rises even more - although I don't suppose it matters so much now I can look forward to idiot proof, H&S approved, liability exempt access to sites I wish to visit to pay homage to our fallen heroes. It's a good job those self-same fallen didn't require H&S certification before they tried climbing a hill, nor did their families have the right to sue for compensation - oops, shut-up, blood pressure's going up. Cheers Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 12 February , 2014 Share Posted 12 February , 2014 Cheers Graham, can’t quite understand the bit about the fallen and H&S and no doubt other experts will correct me if I am wrong but I do not recall those who bravely attacked here in 1916 comprising of a mixed age and gender range including 70 - 80+ years of age and those with physical impairments plus of course and I apologize for mentioning -----WOMEN, plus of course all those who make their living out of providing guided tours of the battlefields and who must bear some responsibility for the welfare of their clients. Anyway the access steps are in-situ so whether we like them as I do or not is immaterial. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 12 February , 2014 Share Posted 12 February , 2014 Norman - not often I say this to you, but hear, hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 12 February , 2014 Share Posted 12 February , 2014 I spent 43 years working in the Mining and steel industry, and let me tell you H&S in no joke. Many friends have been badly injured some colleagues have died, when we started doing risk assessments and carrying out modified routines to reduce the "risk", injury statistics reflected the success of the new attitudes to safety.... I'll leave it at that.... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 12 February , 2014 Share Posted 12 February , 2014 As a former production engineer, Tom, I am all for H&S in the workplace. I am not sure that the steps to the Red Dragon memorial come into quite the same category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 12 February , 2014 Share Posted 12 February , 2014 Would you be willing to accept responsibility and cost from any actions that would arise from injury incurred to a visitor(s) whilst ascending to the monument?? Scaremongering about liability is no reason to install something that is completely discordant with the character of the site. Lochnagar, for example, faces similar issues on a much larger scale and the walkways and barriers there have been upgraded using natural materials, sympathetically inserted into the landscape. Imagine what the crater would look like if it were surrounded by bright metal fencing and walkways out of the same municipal fittings catalogue as the stairs installed at Mametz Wood. Industrial health & safety is an entirely different issue, and to invoke it in relation to a few steps up the side of a small mound in the midst of the French countryside is disingenuous. Yes, there does need to be a means of ascending the slope to the memorial, yes, it does need to be basically safe, but also yes, it should be in keeping with the character of the site and its broader setting, and no, that industrial metal staircase is not the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 12 February , 2014 Share Posted 12 February , 2014 Perhaps the elusive scrap metal merchants will make it disappear overnight. Sorry but it could have been done much much better than what is now there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 12 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2014 It used to be accepted that Patriotism was the last refuge of a scoundrel(*), but nowadays it seems to be "Health & Safety" and "Freedom of Information". Much of what precedes this is nothing short of sycophantic drivel. What has been erected is the battlefield memorial equivalent of Frankenstein's monster - seemingly a thing of beauty to its creators, but in reality a demon. (* Samuel Johnson, who was of course referring to false patriotism). I went to have another look yesterday, and it is awful, truly awful; in fact it is beyond awful, it is dreadful in extremis. There is no aesthetic or practical mitigation at all; it is a truly horrible heap of metal thoughtlessly dumped upon this beautiful memorial site. (Unfortunately I am presently unable to upload any new photos). Health & safety - what a load of poo ! - The dragon itself has pointy bits, so by the same standards these should be cut off. The plinth could be climbed by schoolkids (and others) who could fall off and hurt themselves - it should immediately be surrounded by a 10ft fence, or better still, knocked down. Having said that, anybody could fall over on any part of this site, which hardly has any flat points, so the whole area should be levelled .... in fact a barrier should be erected on the Mametz - Contalmaison road and a sign erected - "Due to Health & Safety regulations ..." (as interpreted by the Welsh WFA, apparently). I defy anybody with even a modicum of taste or common sense to stand infront of this horror and declare it to be a sensible solution to the "problem". It is nothing short of vandalism. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 12 February , 2014 Share Posted 12 February , 2014 Congratulations to the South Wales Branch of the WFA for taking this sensible action. Those who object to it are of course are those who have no legal liability for it. If a court case were to be brought because of a serious injury, the armchair generals would quietly slink into the background. One last point; perhaps Tom T-M can tell us what gives him the right to be the arbiter of what constitutes "taste and common sense" ? TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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