A long way for A Burial

[StAubyns]

info on George William Hogg – all that I have!

He was in the 16th Battalion Sherwood Foresters and during the attack north of the Ancre, which started on the 3rd of September 1916, they were in reserve. They had been in action since the 1st July 1916.

On the 6th September they moved into the Long Acre sector of Beaumont Hamel On the 11th of September these trenches were heavily shelled and the Battalion War Diaries states that 5 men were wounded during this exchange of fire. Private Hogg died of wounds on the 12th September. (See Chesterfield Rifles on the Somme)

George however is buried in Lebucquiere Communal Cemetery Extension, which at that time was 18 miles behind the German front lines.

Why, if they had his body, is he buried so far from where he was killed?

Any suggestions would be gratefully received

[Dave_59]

Hi StAubyns,

Welcome to the forum,

He was probably evacuated to an aid post, then to a casualty clearing station and then onto hospital if further treatment was required (if he didnt die at the casualty clearing station). The CCS and hospital may have been some way from the line.

Hope this helps

Dave

p.s. I would advise you to copy this thread into the soldiers section, as it will get more replies.

[Tom Morgan]

On the 6th September they moved into the Long Acre sector of Beaumont Hamel On the 11th of September these trenches were heavily shelled and the Battalion War Diaries states that 5 men were wounded during this exchange of fire. Private Hogg died of wounds on the 12th September. (See Chesterfield Rifles on the Somme)

St. Aubyns - does it actually say that Pte. Hogg was one of the 5 men wounded on the 11th?

If there is no direct evidence that he was wounded in the shelling on the 11th, it may be just a coincidence that he died on the 12th. He may have been wounded and captured some time previously and died of his wounds while a prisoner. If the Germans buried him, this would explain why he was originally buried so far from the place where his own unit was on the date of his death, and so far behind Enemy lines.

Tom

[Dave_59]

oh sorry i didnt read the behind enemy lines bit

I apologise.

Dave

[StAubyns]

Thanks for your interest-This is a copy of the wording used in the web site "Chesterfield Sherwoods on the Somme"

Throughout the day of September 11th the Germans shelled the front line trenches and the Lewis Gun section again retaliated by firing on the wire during the night. The War Diary states that 5 men were accidentally wounded during this exchange of fire. The Battn were relieved by the 17/SF on September 13th and returned to billets in Mailly Wood.

You are right in saying that is not specifically named, maybe the author of the Chesterfield Sherwoods on the Somme has made that assumption and inserted the following

HOGG, GEORGE WILLIAM.

Private, 21838, 16th Btn., d. of w. 12/09/1916, aged 33.

b. Codnor; e. Shirebrook; r. Mansfield.

[Tom Morgan]

You are right in saying that is not specifically named, maybe the author of the Chesterfield Sherwoods on the Somme has made that assumption and inserted the following

HOGG, GEORGE WILLIAM.

Private, 21838, 16th Btn., d. of w. 12/09/1916, aged 33.

b. Codnor; e. Shirebrook; r. Mansfield.

Well, it's just a possibility. As the info came from a website, you could email the webmaster and ask. It's a very interesting little mystery and I hope you get to the bottom of it.

Burials at Lebucquiere Communal Cemetery Extension were added to after the war, when British burials from the surrounding area were brought in, so it's possible that these burials included men who were originally buried by the Germans.

Tom

[StAubyns]

I had thought of a battlefield clearance burial but decided that 18 miles was probably to far for this occurance.

The statement"died of wounds 12th september" suggests to me that the body was in british hands at that time but perhaps I am wrong in that assumption.

Thanks for the sugestion of contacting the web site - i should have thought of that myself!

Sorry for ignoring you Dave 59, it was an oversight and I apologise.

[Dave_59]

nah, its fine no reason to apoligise.

dave

[Tom Morgan]

The statement"died of wounds 12th september" suggests to me that the body was in british hands at that time but perhaps I am wrong in that assumption.

The Germans seem to have kept records of prisoners who died while in captivity, including of course their names and dates of death, and these records were passed on to the British authorities after the war. I'm not sure how though. Perhaps the British got the details from the grave-markers when they found the burials. Or perhaps there were written records. Maybe our good Pal Terry Denham can come to the rescue here. I imagine that these soldiers would be officially listed as "missing" until their burial-places were discovered.

I once visited Harlebeke New British Cemetery in Harlebeke (now Harelbeke). This village was also some miles behind the German lines for most of the war. I went to visit the grave of a soldier who was known to have died while a prisoner. There are many such soldiers buried in that cemetery, their bodies brought in from German cemeteries in the 1920s. I can't vouch for them all, but the one I visited had a name and date of death, and the soldier died over a year before Harlebeke was captured in the British advance of 1918.

Tom

[suegill]

From cwgc.org. This is a consolidated cemetery. He was probably brought here after the war. In his record it says that he is in the Cemetery Extension.

Lebucquiere village was occupied by Commonwealth forces on 19 March 1917, following the German withdrawal to the Hindenburg Line. It was recaptured by the Germans on 23 March 1918, after fierce resistance by the 19th (Western) Division, and was finally reoccupied by the 5th Division on 3 September 1918. The communal cemetery extension was begun on 24 March 1917 and was used by the 1st Australian Division and other units for almost a year. After the reoccupation of the village in September 1918, it was used again for a fortnight. At the Armistice, the cemetery contained 150 burials, but it was then greatly enlarged when graves were brought in from the surrounding battlefields. The extension now contains 774 Commonwealth burials and commemorations of the First World War. 266 of the burials are unidentified but there are special memorials 20 casualties known or believed to be buried among them and to one soldier buried in Bertincourt German Military Cemetery, whose remains could not be found on concentration. The cemetery was designed by Sir Herbert Baker.

[StAubyns]

As Suggested, I have contacted the author of "Chesterfield Sherwoods on the Somme" and below are extracts that are pertinant to my search -

"The web site is set out with casualties in between the extracts of the war diary si George Hogg sits between the shelling of the trenches on the 11th and the relief of the batttalion on the 13th. This may be misleading because he could have been wounded several days(or even a week) before hand. You would need some reference to him being wounded to place the date exactly(either from his war record in PRO or the regimental archives)

You are probably right in that they are hardly likely to move a body 18 miles for burial and this is backed by the fact that most burials in Lebucquire are from 1917/18(and very few from 1916)However ther is no mention of any men of the 16/Sherwoods missing in action during September or August 1916.

For certain he died of wounds on the 12thSeptember(both CWGC and SDGW text) but whether he was in german hands, who knows.

During the trench duty 6th - 13th September when George would have been wounded the war diary mentions that the Battlion were holding trenches opposite station road"

Thanks very much to Dr Mike Briggs for this information

So I still do not have a definitive answer and I will carry on searching avenues suggested by Dr Mike Briggs

CWGC to see if his grave has been moved

Contact Regimental historianin Derby to see if they have a record of his service wounding etc

Search PRO for his war record

Look in the Derbyshire times

Thanks to all who have entered this discussion to date and for the information provided. If anyone can assist further this will be much apprecited

Thanks from StAubyns(aka Geoff Stockdale)