jscott Posted 7 February , 2014 Share Posted 7 February , 2014 Hi all I have recently been looking at buying an imperial German war flag (which I understand were typically flown by the German navy during WW1). I am finding it extremely difficult to find any information on these online. I plan to buy from a reputable dealer but was wondering if there is anything obvious to look for to determine if a flag is genuine, and whether there are any fakes of these (as opposed to the numerous obvious reproductions). In particular are there maker stamps I should be looking for, particular sizes or materials etc? Any information would be gratefully received. Also, were these ever used by the infantry as well as the navy (ie early in the war)? On a slightly different tangent, I believe that these flags are banned in Germany (along with the WW2 equivalent). Is there some form of Nazi-connotation here, despite the fact the imperial flag was only used till 1919? Many thanks, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 7 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2014 Actually just found this in relation to my second query (although very little on the web re my first query!): The German war flag was in common use in World War I. It had Prussia's national colours of black and white, the eagle of Prussia, the Nordic cross, with the German imperial black-white red tricolour in the upper canton with an Iron Cross. In 1919, the flags of Imperial Germany were scrapped and replaced by those of the Weimar Republic: black-red-gold tricolour. German nationalists, such as the Freikorps (see Marinebrigade Ehrhardt) and later the Nazis, used the old flag in protest against the Weimar Republic during the 1920s and 1930s. This included the 1920 attempt to overthrow the Weimar government, known as the Kapp Putsch.[ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 7 February , 2014 Share Posted 7 February , 2014 One method I have heard (that perhaps others can either confirm or deny) is to use a black light to see if the fabric and/or threads fluoresce or not. Old ones will not glow brightly under black light, but new ones will. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 7 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2014 Thanks Daniel, good suggestion. I'm normally more interested in 'metal' as opposed to 'cloth' items so lack the expertise here, but that sounds like a good starting point. I'm not entirely sure how that works but have heard of people using a black light on uniforms/ patches etc. (Having said all that Im not sure that Id have the expertise to know what constitutes 'flourescing' - unless its really obvious!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 7 February , 2014 Share Posted 7 February , 2014 Here's an example from another forum showing a modern ribbon 'fluorescing" under a black light: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2787090 For comparison, a ribbon bar that is authentic: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/134327-usmc-wide-ribbon-bar/ The modern one glows many times brighter than the original (which still glows, but quite dimly). -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 8 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 8 February , 2014 Thanks Daniel - thats very helpful. I'll have a further look into this and let you know how I get on with the flag. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 8 February , 2014 Share Posted 8 February , 2014 Good luck...I hope it's the real deal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.B. Posted 19 February , 2014 Share Posted 19 February , 2014 Hi Jonathan Take a look at this one -I'm no expert on these so have linked this for info only: http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Imperial/photos/G003570.html A flag like this would make a superb backdrop to a display of helmets, uniforms or other WWI German militaria....good luck with your eventual purchase! All the best Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 20 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2014 Thaks Paul - mine just arrived today and I think its almost ideantical to the one you've attached (in size and design - although colours are more faded on mine). I paid only a small fraction of the price of that flag though, which was one of the points that slightly concerned me... Having said that it looks genuine to me, and has a definite feel of age about it. I will post some photos later on - especially of some of the markings which have intrigued me... Cheers, Jonathan PS. and yes am still considering how to display but I agree it will be a lovely addition to the collection! Also I was interested to note that the flag you posted was stated to be 3rd Reich era production. Not sure how this was determined but interesting to know that they still produced them post-1919. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 20 February , 2014 Share Posted 20 February , 2014 I have one of these, I bought it years ago. Although you've already bought one Jonathan I'll add this (with regards to my flag) in case anyone else has the same query. There's a printed word along the edge of the flag where the rope goes through although I can't read it and as my flag is very faded, the red colour is still quite strong but the blue is almost non existent and the black has turned brown. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 20 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2014 Tony, lovely flag, thanks for sharing. The colours on mine are even more faded than yours, other than the blue colour which is faded but more visible than on yours. The background on mine is not as white as yours either (suspect it had a tough life as numerous small tears/ holes etc in the fabric). As with your flag there is a seam through the middle, and at the bottom along the rope edge there is a small sown patch which has a stamped Prussian eagle in black with the following words around it: "Preussische * Armee * Organisation". I haven't yet been able to find out anything on this (ie whether its a reference to the Prussian army of WW1, or a later organisation)? Would be very interested to hear if anyone knows anything about this. Out of interest how do you display/ store your flag? Thanks, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 20 February , 2014 Share Posted 20 February , 2014 Mine isn't very white either when seen in the flesh so to speak, it's more a sort of dirty cream with stains here and there and the odd tear. I have a black patch sewn to the top corner I think but no stamps apart from whatever is written along the rope edge. As for the Preussische Armee Organisation I think it just means the flag dates from after the re-organisation during the Napoleonic wars, a sort of Prussian new model army but don't quote me on it. I used to have the flag on the wall as a backdrop however, it now lives in a cardboard box. I'll dig it out tomorrow to see if I can find any stamps or anything else I've missed out. I also have a black, white and red Reichs flag which is far to large to display anywhere apart from the top of a large building. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 21 February , 2014 Share Posted 21 February , 2014 Jonathan, I dug out the flag this morning to have a look. It appears to have the German word for storm stamped on it but I can't make out the rest. There are two patches attached to the flag, one at the top and the other at the bottom, probably to strengthen the stitching where the rope runs through. I don't have any stamps showing Preussiche Armee Organisation. Below is a pic of the wording along the rope side. In the picture the top sewn patch shows how much the flag has faded from its original printed black to brown. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2014 Tony Thanks for posting that shot - very interesting to see the markings. I'm finding it very difficult to find much of interest online about the markings on these flags - there is a lot more on the WW2 version of the flag. I quite like the fading on yours - if nothing else it indicates that the item is more likely to be genuine and saw some use back in its day! What size is your flag out of interest? Mine is around 91cm x 151cm. The rope-side lining on my flag looks almost identical to yours, although my rope sections seem a little finer and are different colours. The blue/ black patch at top and the white patch at bottom seems to be the standard set up. The stamp on my flag is located on the small white patch at bottom. I will put up some shots of mine shortly. Thanks,. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 22 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2014 Here are a few shots of mine (the colours are less washed out in real life - I think the bright light in the room was responsible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 22 February , 2014 Share Posted 22 February , 2014 The colours appear exactly the same as my flag apart the blue which is very faded on my one and of course the missing stamp. My one measures the same. I bought it from a very good source and believe we can both be confident that we have 100% originals. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 22 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2014 Hi Tony That's great news, thanks. I'm sure there were many different types of stamps etc - that definitely seems to be the case with the ww2 flags. I also purchased mine from a trustworthy source, and it does feel right in the hand - authentic looking fading, lots of small holes/ tears and blemishes consistent with having been used, and also a slight "old" smell. I was just watching the winter olympics and was interested to compare the current stylised German eagle with this Prussian version. Cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 22 February , 2014 Share Posted 22 February , 2014 Here are a few shots of mine (the colours are less washed out in real life - I think the bright light in the room was responsible).The eagle is facing the opposite way to that in post 10. Does your picture show the reverse, hence the faint colours? Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 22 February , 2014 Share Posted 22 February , 2014 Hi Tony That's great news, thanks. I'm sure there were many different types of stamps etc - that definitely seems to be the case with the ww2 flags. I also purchased mine from a trustworthy source, and it does feel right in the hand - authentic looking fading, lots of small holes/ tears and blemishes consistent with having been used, and also a slight "old" smell. I was just watching the winter olympics and was interested to compare the current stylised German eagle with this Prussian version. Cheers, Jonathan Jonathan, my wife is German and we needed a copy of one of our youngest child's German birth certificate the other day, the certificate is A4 in size and has a massive eagle on it almost the same size as the page. Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 22 February , 2014 Share Posted 22 February , 2014 Here are a few shots of mine (the colours are less washed out in real life - I think the bright light in the room was responsible).The eagle is facing the opposite way to that in post 10. Does your picture show the reverse, hence the faint colours? Kath. Yes Kath, I photographed it from the reverse although I didn't know it at the time It's a printed flag and both sides are equally faded. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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