Suffolk Regt Cap Badges

[andrew.march]

Hello,

I've been researching my Great Grandfather recently, 18222 Pvt. James A Taylor of 2nd Battalion The Suffolk Regiment who was sadly KIA in May 1917 near Arras.

I've already visited his final resting place, and I'm planning soon to take a trip to view the regimental war diary in order that I can find out what actions his unit was involved in around that time. I will in due course prepare a post presenting what I have been able to find out about him that hopefully somebody may be able to help me expand on!

In the mean time I have a couple of quick queries that I'm hoping somebody may be able to advise me on.

Whilst visiting France I bought this cap badge that I'm fairly convinced is an authentic period item, but I am no expert! Please could someone give me their opinion on whether it is in fact genuine and of the WWI period, and whether it would be likely be the same as that issued to my Great Grandfather?

The reason I ask if it is likely to be the same as issued is that I have found a picture that shows (who I presume to be) him with three friends, I would guess soon after they had volunteered.

The picture has them all wearing what seem to be the 'two turret' design of regiment cap badge - if this is indeed the case, would they have been likely to have worn these into active service or would they have been exchanged for new ones before then?

Kind regards,

Andrew

[EDWARD1]

There were "two Turret " versions for the 4th/5th/6th (Cyclists)Battalions, The Suffolk Regiment T F also without the "Montes Isignia Calpe" motto

Eddie

[andrew.march]

Thanks both. I had seen economy issue badges before, but had thought otherwise as they seemed to be of only one metal. What are the characteristics that make mine one?

Sadly he never made it home to meet his daughter, my Grandmother - she was born a couple of months before he died, and anything she had been told was never passed down in any way, so unfortunately I haven't a lot of information from the family to go on.

The CWGC has him down as having been the 2nd Battalion though, which ties in with his medal card.

Does this make it likely that he was TA attached to a regular battalion - how could I find out for certain?

[trenchtrotter]

If yours is bi metal it is not an economy issue. I think the lighting has deceived

TT

[spof]

THe war diary for 2 Suffolk is available online to download for £3.36 from TNA.

WO 95/1424/1 03 DIVISION 008 BRIGADE 02 Suffolk Regiment. 01/08/1914 30/09/1915

WO 95/1437/1 03 DIVISION 076 BRIGADE 02 Suffolk Regiment. 01/11/1915 30/04/1919

[badjez]

Just a thought- if this soldier had joined as a pre-war Territorial he would have been photographed wearing the 'two turret' TF cap badge. If post-1916 he had lost his TF cap badge, or been posted to a Regular Battalion he may well have been issued an economy version. The less likely option is that as recruits, due to shortages, someone had found QVC version of cap badges and issued them. This could be mistaken for the TF cap badge.

[FROGSMILE]

Just my two pennorth - the colour image is clearly (to me) a bi-metal badge and of the correct pattern after the change to the standardised Gibraltar castle. I agree that most WW1 badges had brazing holes, but it does not follow that all of the many badge manufacturers of that period used them, so it 'could' be a WW1 badge. The black and white images clearly show the older, two turret Gibraltar castle design that was used by the Territorial Force, but also by some 'old soldiers' who wished to demonstrate their veteran status.

[Muerrisch]

Try the British Badge Forum for expert comment: my two penn'orth is that I have several of each of the Suffolks regular battalions' badges, and the bi-metal ALL have brazeholes where the scroll is joined to the circlet.

If there is any doubt about the authenticity of the example, worry not: the real deal will not break the bank. PM me if a reliable honest dealer contact is needed.

[Guest]

There are three versions of a Suffolk two-turret badge. For my money the B&W photos are KC two turrets worn by regulars.

1.QVC

2. KC

3. KC Territorial. The castle design and circlet are very different from the standard KC badge which was not (officially) worn by the TF

1. The first is the Victorian period badge worn from 1898 which had a castle with two turrets (Ref KK 603) within a circlet inscribed Montis Insignia Calpe which was worn until 1901. The crown was of course a Victorian Crown.

2. There is also the same badge with an Imperial Crown (KK 604) . On 30th Jan 1900 a War Office Instruction changed the turret design to a three-turret badge. Clearly this was not fully implemented given the existence of Imperial Crown two turret badges which in theory would not have been made until after Victoria's death. Presumably it was easier for badge manufacturers to add the new Imperial Crown than redesign the castle. The castle was part of the Montis Insignia Calpe representing the fortress and key of Gibraltar and used in the cap-badge design of a few other regiments such as the Dorsets and Northamptonshires and the Essex.

3. Separate to this the 4th, 5th and 6th Bns (TF) of the Suffolk Regt wore a badge with two turrets of a different design (KK 1710). The castle is a different castle with flags flying from the turrets - representing the castle at Bury St Edmunds rather than Gibraltar. The castle is the same as the one used by the Loyal Suffolk Hussars. The circlet is thinner and is blank. The idea being (then) that Territorial units would not carry battle honours and special insignia awarded to the regular battalions (Gibraltar in this case). The original turreted badge and inscription were part of this honour, so the Suffolk TF had a similar (but different) castle design in their badge. This differentiation was not carried out in all regiments.

For what it is worth I think the badges in the Black and White photos are Imperial Crowned two turret badges worn by regulars which given the provenance is a good fit. These may well have been sitting in the QM's stores for years and were reused during the expansion of the Suffolk Regt. I think the voids are too small for the TF badge and the turrets too stout and too close together. If the photo shows shoulder titles this might help eliminate the TF.

The two-turret castle in the TF badge is also used as the cap-badge of the Loyal Suffolk Hussars (Yeomanry TF) and is allegedly the Castle at Bury St Edmunds. It was this design which was adopted by the Suffolk Regt TF for their TF infantry battalions. The 5th Bn (TF) was headquartered in Bury St Edmunds.

There are lots of fakes of the TF badge in circulation. Images of all are here including the Suffolk Hussars badge.

MG

Edited.

[TARA]

Not WWI but for interest and comparison, I have attached a photo of a WWII Suffolk Regiment badge and a 1950s Suffolk Yeomanry badge (Loyal Suffolk Hussars).

It's about sixty years since they were last cleaned!